Solved Multi Boot computer - how to keep data and programs in sync

[MarkusGE]

First of all, please let me say hi, because I´m new to this forum. My name is Markus, I am from Austria (Europe), interested in trains, computers (mostly programming) and music (I play the drums). I´m a member of the Open Rails Development Team and an administrator at Elvas Tower Railfan Forums.

Secondly, let me go medias in res

I have recently acquired a new laptop computer (Toshiba Satellite L70-B) to replace my aging Sony Vaio rig. However, this new computer came with Win8.1 pre-installed, which I personally actually have come to like very soon - but which won´t run many of the programs I use daily (of note is Microsoft Train Simulator and many of its supporting utilities and programs, which do not run on Win8+AMD Graphics card setup - Win8+NVidia is said to be fine though - anyway).

Because of this problem, I have made this computer dual-bootable with an HDD partition layout as follows:

#1 - Primary Partition - 100MB - NTFS - "System Reserved" - System, Active
#2 - Primary Partition -- 50GB - NTFS - "Windows 7 Professional"
#3 - Primary Partition -- 50GB - NTFS - "Windows 8.1"
#4 - Primary Partition - 831GB - NTFS - "Data"

However, as I´m likely going to use both OSes to about the same amount, I want to have my data and programs shared and synced between both OSes to the greatest extent possible. I have also already done quite a bit of online research on the topic, but have not yet come to a real conclusion what to do.

Here´s a list of possible ways of keeping data and programs in sync without too much duplication that I could go with. The list also shows to which extent I have trustworthy info on it, where I found, and what conclusions I came to (color coded: solution/info found -- only vague/partial bits of info -- not possible -- no info yet)

1. Sharing (parts of) the C:\Users\<YourUsername> folder between OSes.
   1. Can Windows' libraries feature (e.g. the My Documents library consolidates the contents of the public Documents and your user account´s Documents folders into a single folder for easier access) be set up to look for files and save to (the first folder opened in a "Save File As" dialog) a different location than in your userprofile´s Documents folder?
   2. Can the sub-folders of your userprofile´s home folder (e.g. C:\users\<YourUserName>\<SubFoldersHere>) be moved to other locations than their default?
   3. Can an entire C:\Users\<YourUsername> folder be moved to another location than it´s default?
   4. Can any of the sub-items 1 to 3 above be used to share folders/files without duplication between both OSes?
   5. Can any of the sub-items 1 to 3 above be used to merge user profiles folders between both OSes?
   6. What about permission clashes with any of the methods mentioned? (Access to the other OS' user profile might be denied...)
2. Using programs on both OSes
   1. Can I use programs on both OSes, even if the files for said program are installed to disk only once?
   2. Can settings that are stored in ...
      1. ... the program's installation directory ...
      2. ... C:\Users\<YourUsername>\Documents\<Program'sSubfolder> ...
      3. ... C:\Users\<YourUsername>\AppData\<Program'sSubfolder> ...
      4. ... in the registry ...
         ... be shared across both OSes?
   3. Will program installers that put some program data into My Documents, for example, recognize to where that folder has been moved?
   4. How would any of the methods under bullet point 1 (subpoints 1.1 through 1.4) influence sharing of program settings across OSes?
3. Are there any other recommendations / strategies WRT directory structure setup or keeping settings of a program installed to both OSes in sync between the OSes?

(Color code: solution/info found -- only vague/partial bits of info -- not possible -- no info yet)


Now to the info I found:

• According to http://www.sevenforu...ave-folder.html and http://www.eightforu...indows-8-a.html, item 1.1 of the above list is possible, more or less without complicated steps. However, it seems like only one OS' libraries can be included into the other OS' libs. Also, the means of controlling data duplication in this setup seem to be almost inexistant - at least I have no info on that.
• According to http://lifehacker.co...7-and-windows-8, items 1.2 and 1.4 are possible, wihtout major problems to be expected, even if both both OSes point to the exact same folder.
• According to http://www.sevenforu...t-location.html a complete user account can be moved to another drive, as described in 1.3. That goes at least in Win7, I have no idea if the same process will also work in Win8. Also, the process is quite complicated and I have read indications elsewhere that problems might arise to access denial (see 1.6) by the OS (User SIDs differing between the OSes or administrator privileges interfering - no real hard info though, and many contradictions). And, merging of the two OS' User folders into one is not even mentioned.

• According to http://www.tomshardw...grams-dual-boot and http://superuser.com...7-and-windows-8, item 2.1 is entirely possible and should work completely flawlessly. With that in mind, programs that only store info in files in their installation directory (sometimes called "portable programs", like ORTS in portable mode), will inevitably run with the same settings on both OSes (item 2.2.1).
• As has been said above, folders like C:\Users\<YourUserName>\Documents can be shared between both OSes, thus, item 2.2.2 is also possible.
• Having tried to move subfolders of the <YourUserName> directory according to the instructions in http://lifehacker.co...7-and-windows-8, I have found that AppData cannot be moved this way. Thus, item 2.2.3 is only possible if 1.3 and 1.6 (merging a complete user folder without permission clashes) is done.
• As to sharing settings saved to the registry (item 2.2.4), and WRT installers recognizing a moved My Documents folder (item 2.3), I have not found any info at all yet.
• Influences of bullet point 1 on 2.2 (item 2.4):
  • All sub-items of 1 are irrelevant for 2.2.1 by the nature of the changes.
  • I have not enough info on 1.1 to say how it would affect 2.2.2 (2.2.3 and 2.2.4 would not be affected due to the nature of the changes).
  • 1.2 would in effect be the only condition for 2.2.2 to work, but due to reasons already mentioned cannot work for 2.2.3; It does not affect 2.2.4.
  • Item 2.2.3 would only be possible if 1.3 is doable, but I´m still missing some info there.

I need all help (comments, links, suggestions, experiences...) I can get with those things highlighted in red, please. Comments on yellow items are also highly welcomed, and if you tell me something new on the green things, it´s appreciated also

Please, keep the thoughts coming

Cheers, Markus

 

[gregrocker]

You can move the active User folders (Documents, Pictures, Videos, etc) that you use from each OS to the same folder on data drive following User Folders - Change Default Location.

However you cannot share programs except in rare cases where they will run from their .exe in the installed Program File, but which I would not do since it is really only correct to fresh install programs to the other OS.

So you'll probably need to expand those OS partitions by at least double the size, which can easily be done using How to extend partition easily with Partition Wizard - video help that can borrow space from any other partition even if it's not adjacent.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while you can upgrade either of those OS's to Windows 10 upon its release next month, you can also Clean Install Windows 10 Technical Preview in a third dual boot or to another hard drive or PC to test it now and get a free upgrade from the TP to Windows 10, too.

 

[MarkusGE]

Thank you for the fast reply

You can move the active User folders that you use from each OS to the data drive following User Folders - Change Default Location.
[...]

I assume, the tutorials in "Option One" are OS-specific, are they?

Can I also merge my C:\Users\markus folders of both OSes into one on the Data partition? Or will that make the access permission play havoc?

[...]
However you cannot share programs except in rare cases where they will run from their .exe in installed Program File, which I would not do since it is really only correct to fresh install programs to the other OS.
[...]

I know I cant actually share programs between OSes, but I have read (as shown in my initial post) on multiple sites, including sevenforums, that I can just install a program to, say D:\someprogram (D: is my Data partition) in one OS, switch to the other OS and install again to D:\someprogram. Is this information wrong?

WRT sharing program settings between OSes, the method just mentioned would cater for that perfectly with "protable" programs, which keep their settings saved to e.g. INI files right in their installation directory (for example Notepad++). SHaring of settings will also be ensured for programs saving that info to My Documents (some Games do that...) when consolidating the documents folders only. And for programs saving settings in AppData, only merging the C:\Users\markus folders of both OSes into one will solve that, as I understand it.

Am I getting something wrong here? If so, please correct me (this is the first time I´m dealing with dual-booting and the resulting problems of data syncing).

[...]
So you'll probably need to expand those OS partitions by at least double the size, which can easily be done using How to extend partition easily with Partition Wizard - video help that can borrow space from any other partition even if it's not adjacent.
[...]

As I said in my previous paragraph already, programs will mostly be installed to the Data partition (unless they are specifically for one OS only) - if that works and I´m not conceptually wrong.

[...]
Another thing to keep in mind is that while you can upgrade either of those OS's to Windows 10 upon its release next month, you can also Clean Install Windows 10 Technical Preview in a third dual boot or to another hard drive or PC to test it now and get a free upgrade from the TP to Windows 10, too.

Thanks for the hint. I have already signed up my old computer for the update/upgrade, which will also be an excuse to clean that computer (physically and virtually) and do a system refresh before upgrading


Cheers, Markus

 

[gregrocker]

I would not move the User account folder as it can cause problems. Again, you want the User AppData to stay on the OS partition along with the Programs installed to that OS to avoid problems. These write Registry keys to the OS that should be kept together with the programs and AppData on that same OS partition until uninstalled.

There is no problem with moving specific User data folders like Documents to the data folder and sharing them between OS's. But be aware that Win7 backup imaging will then want to include the data partition since it now contains System files. So I'd use an alternative imaging app like our favorite here Macrium Imaging.

If the OS ever becomes irreparable you can reimage its OS partition in 20 minutes and your data will be safe, still linked and current in its own partition.

 

[MarkusGE]

I would not move the User account folder as it can cause problems. Again, you want the User AppData to stay on the OS partition along with the Programs installed to that OS to avoid problems. [...]

What exactly are the possible problems?

[...] These write Registry keys to the OS that should be kept together with the programs and AppData on that same OS partition until uninstalled. [...]

Some programs do not create registry entries (e.g. portable programs) do not write to registry. Can those programs be shared across OSes without problems?

[...] There is no problem with moving specific User data folders like Documents to the data folder and sharing them between OS's. [...]

OK, so AppData should (and can) not be moved. The rest can, without problem, be moved to other drives/partitions and shared between OSes, if I read your post correctly.

As mentioned, there are programs that put some of their files (user profile definitions in games, for example) in the Documents folder. If I moved that Documents folder to another partition with the process in the tutorial you posted, will installers for such programs then recognize the new location of the Documents folder?

[...] But be aware that Win7 backup imaging will then want to include the data partition since it now contains System files. So I'd use an alternative imaging app like our favorite here Macrium Imaging.

If the OS ever becomes irreparable you can reimage its OS partition in 20 minutes and your data will be safe, still linked and current in its own partition.

When it comes to keeping backups, I have been keeping a clean image backup of the OS without any data for purposes of quickly recovering a working OS, along with a regularly updated incremental backup by Paragon Backup & Recovery. That image backup was created by Windows, though, so I´ll see if I´ll switch to another imaging software with that computer.

Macrium ,however, seems to have gone payware since the tutorial you linked was created. If possible, I´d like to go with some free software due to my limited budget (Doing compulsory civil service currently).


Cheers, Markus

 

[Boozad]

I would not move the User account folder as it can cause problems. Again, you want the User AppData to stay on the OS partition along with the Programs installed to that OS to avoid problems. [...]

What exactly are the possible problems?

Denied access to your Outlook.pst file for one as I found out unwittingly the other night while messing around with OneDrive.

 

[MarkusGE]

I would not move the User account folder as it can cause problems. Again, you want the User AppData to stay on the OS partition along with the Programs installed to that OS to avoid problems. [...]

What exactly are the possible problems?

Denied access to your Outlook.pst file for one as I found out unwittingly the other night while messing around with OneDrive.

That´s a problem related to user files, I guess, and about which I have also read already.


On a the other side of my questions, what would the problems be with programs NOT installed to the OS partition (but still installed to a partition on the internal HDD)?


Cheers, Markus

 

[gregrocker]

Macrium is still free. Macrium Reflect Free

I did not say you can move everything except AppData. I said that what works without problem is to move the specific User shell folders such as Documents, Pictures, Music, etc. Move the files in them when prompted to do so and it will complete the move. User Folders - Change Default Location

In rare cases a User folder will lose its Shell status (icon on folder) or Location tab confirming its Shell status. This can be sorted by the steps in User Folders - Restore Default Location - Windows 7 Forums.

I link the User folders into my OneDrive folder across all my devices so that they are kept sync'd. This has worked fine for me although went buggy a few times when I tried to link Windows 10 folders into my Windows 7 Dual Boot when I should have just had them sync via Onedrive, but I had a small SSD for both and wanted to easily share. I think that problem can be avoided by using a Data partition as you plan.

Moving the User profile can cause complicated problems that are difficult to sort out. I asked the tutorial author about it a year or more ago and he said he no longer recommends it.

 

[GokAy]

Some programs do not create registry entries (e.g. portable programs) do not
write to registry. Can those programs be shared across OSes without
problems?

They can still create folders and some config files in AppData. Not all do this of course.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Portable Software

You could use "portable" versions of your software (assuming they are available) to get around possible Registry issues.

 

[MarkusGE]

Macrium is still free. Macrium Reflect Free [...]

If you know where to search...

I re-checked, the link in the tutorial is obviously outdated (maybe it should be updated?) and the free version is mentioned nowhere on their homepage. Anyway, thank you for correcting me and posting the link

[...] I did not say you can move everything except AppData. I said that what works without problem is to move the specific User shell folders such as Documents, Pictures, Music, etc. Move the files in them when prompted to do so and it will complete the move. User Folders - Change Default Location

In rare cases a User folder will lose its Shell status (icon on folder) or Location tab confirming its Shell status. This can be sorted by the steps in User Folders - Restore Default Location - Windows 7 Forums. [...]

Well, OK. That´s a limitation to what can be moved, but that needs to be cross-checked with what should be moved.

My stated goal is to sync data and programs (with settings) between the OSes to the largest extent possible. But that does not mean everything has to be shared. In essence, after cross-checking, I will be fine if Contacts, Documents, Downloads, Links, Music, Videos, Pictures could be shared between the OSes (AppData would be great to share, but what ain´t possible is impossible).

Those seem to be folders that just contain data and no OS-specific information. Please correct me, if I´m wrong.

Thank you for also posting the "undo" tutorial. I hope I won´t need it, but who knows?

[...] I link the User folders into my OneDrive folder across all my devices so that they are kept sync'd. This has worked fine for me although went buggy a few times when I tried to link Windows 10 folders into my Windows 7 Dual Boot when I should have just had them sync via Onedrive, but I had a small SSD for both and wanted to easily share. I think that problem can be avoided by using a Data partition as you plan. [...]

I have read about Win7 going "crazy" when changing files in it´s home partition while using Win8. I´m trying to avoid that by using that shared data partition, and having each foreign OS partition hidden (in Win7, the Win8 partition has no drive letter, and vice versa). That way, inadvertently producing a mess as you dod should be prevented.

At this point I have to thank you again - you mentioned data linking, which I would not have thought about at all! More on that at the end of this post.

[...] Moving the User profile can cause complicated problems that are difficult to sort out. I asked the tutorial author about it a year or more ago and he said he no longer recommends it.

OK, so I´m pretty much ruling that option out now, after so many warnings and so little specific info - I think, after all, it´s scaring me off

Some programs do not create registry entries (e.g. portable programs) do not write to registry. Can those programs be shared across OSes without
problems?

They can still create folders and some config files in AppData. Not all do this of course.

Another limitation to syncing, of course, but since my stated goal is to try and sync things to the largest extent possible, this will simply fall in the range of not possible, then (except if the idea outlined at the end of the post works).

You could use "portable" versions of your software (assuming they are available) to get around possible Registry issues.

Thank you for the tip. Planning to do that wherever possible


___________________________________________________________________


A totally new idea to sharing info in AppData between OSes (thanks to gregrocker for mentioning file linking )

Could I create a directory junction from Win7´s AppData folder to my Data partition, and from there to my Win8´s AppData folder (and the same vice versa) to synchronize the contents?

Cheers, Markus

 

[gregrocker]

You can try it, but I would expect problems. The reason is that app data is OS specific.

 

[MarkusGE]

You can try it, but I would expect problems. The reason is that app data is OS specific.

OK... so linking AppData folders completely that way will be now good.

What a bout a strip-down version of linking just the subfolder of AppData, specific to programs?


There´s also one question not answered above: If I move my Documents folder from C:\users\markus\Documents to, for example, D:\Documents, will installers of programs that put stuff into Documents recognize that folder´s new location?

Cheers, Markus

 

[gregrocker]

I would not mess with the AppData folders. There is really no reason to do this. No one has every complained about them taking up too much space and if they do then I'd get a larger drive.

I've told you all that I would move. The rest is modding the OS files which only leads to problems.

 

[MarkusGE]

I would not mess with the AppData folders. There is really no reason to do this. No one has every complained about them taking up too much space and if they do then I'd get a larger drive.

It´s not about space problems, but about applications and what they store in AppData (OpenRails Train Simulator, for example, stores all it´s save files there - though those could be manually ported by built-in program functionality, which is a tedious process, however).

[...] I've told you all that I would move. The rest is modding the OS files which only leads to problems.

OK, I´ll find a way to live with that, then


One questions is still not answered, though: There are programs that put some files in subdirectories of C:\Users\%CurrentUser%\Documents. If I move said directory to. for example, D:\SomeFolderPath\Documents, will those programs and their installers find the Documents folder in the new location?


Cheers, Markus

 

[MarkusGE]

[...] I did not say you can move everything except AppData. I said that what works without problem is to move the specific User shell folders such as Documents, Pictures, Music, etc.

This page contains a full list of user shell folders that can be moved: How to Move Windows 7 Personal Folders Like My Documents to Another Drive | Gizmo's Freeware

Cheers, Markus

 

[gregrocker]

One questions is still not answered, though: There are programs that put some files in subdirectories of C:\Users\%CurrentUser%\Documents. If I move said directory to. for example, D:\SomeFolderPath\Documents, will those programs and their installers find the Documents folder in the new location?
Cheers, Markus

I've never had any problem with a Program not finding moved User folders.

Since you like to experiment you could try moving the Appdata and even merging it for both operating systems as a test bed to report back here the results. Just be sure to save a system image of your install before making the modifications.

Yes this is not the ordinary advice given consumers here, but this is also the forums where most of the repair regimens for Windows 7 were originally tested and developed. So I don't want to discourage that for someone as curious as you are.

 

[MarkusGE]

That´s good news


Since this was my last question so far, a big Thank You to all who have helped me with this, and a special Thanks to you, gregrocker, for your patience

I´ll post back if everything worked out the ways described.

Cheers, Markus

 

[gregrocker]

Thank you Marcus, for reminding me of our forums' own brilliant youth, just as I was becoming an old scold too set in the ways that "work best."

I've asked in our lounge for others who might want to observe and perhaps join in on your experiment. There's more that can be done in that area.

 

[MarkusGE]

I've never had any problem with a Program not finding moved User folders.

Since you like to experiment you could try moving the Appdata and even merging it for both operating systems as a test bed to report back here the results. Just be sure to save a system image of your install before making the modifications.

Yes this is not the ordinary advice given consumers here, but this is also the forums where most of the repair regimens for Windows 7 were originally tested and developed. So I don't want to discourage that for someone as curious as you are.

I obviously missed your editing of your post - when I looked at it before I replied, I just saw the first line.

Thus, my reply of posting back was actually meant at reporting if everything securely possible worked out.

However, I am going to do at least one experiment for sure: Installing programs to my D: drive, first from Win7, then from Win8, both times to the same folder path.

As for the other experiments, I´m not sure. Since merging user profiles is not recommended anymore, because it has obviously already led to problems, I´m not sure if I will try that. And aside from that, there is only one more possibility to merge AppData, and that is with junctions.

This latter idea is only a theoretical possibility, because I have never used junctions so far, even though I have a handy feature extension installed to Windows, called Link Shell Extension (download Index of /nt/hardlinkshellext), which facilitates all kinds of linking operations in Windows.

I´m sure I will at least try linking progra-specific subfolders of AppData acrosss OSes, but if I will try merging the complete AppData folder is yet to be decided.

After all (which I haven´t told so far), I´ve been messing with this new computer for nearly two months to get the dual-boot config to work, whereas I initially planned to have this whole machine up and running (completely customized to my needs, too) within two weeks. So, if I´ll take any extra miles that I could do without is questionable currently.

Thank you Marcus, for reminding me of our forums' own brilliant youth, just as I was becoming an old scold too set in the ways that "work best."

I've asked in our lounge for others who might want to observe and perhaps join in on your experiment. There's more that can be done in that area.

I can be a real PITA (sorry for using that word, but it best describes what I´m trying to say) when I have the feeling, something could be possible, but there is not enough info already readily available - that´s why I keep asking

WRT to monitoring the experiments - well, see the above WRT what experiments I´ll do and which I´ll probably let be. Be assured, though, that whatever I try, I will post the results here.

Cheers, Markus