Need expert for difficult computer problem - random crash/lockups

[vettejock99]

I've been building PCs for my personal use for almost 20 years, and my latest HTPC I built about 8 months ago. It's fairly basic, a Gigabyte motherboard with 8GB RAM (2 sticks), a Sandy Bridge i3, a BD drive, and a RAID card with 3 attached HDs in a case with an Antec Earthwatts 380W PSU. It ran brilliantly for about 6 months and nothing has been changed with the hardware.

Starting about 2 months ago I began experiencing random lockups. Felt like it was something I'd installed since the hardware was pretty new and had been stable with no changes, but I've since reinstalled Windows from scratch multiple times, run memory tests, sfc /scannow, etc. and I get no obvious errors, but the machine is still locking up. Here are the symptoms:

- Lockup can happen minutes or hours after boot, but often takes many hours up to a couple of days
- Happens whether I am using it (say watching a movie) or when it is idle
- Usually screen is completely black when I try to access it (and it doesn't respond to network ping or other connection attempts), but sometimes the screen is showing but garbled up
- Requires a reboot to fix
- Often, but not always, the date in Windows after such a reboot reflects current day date, but year showing is now 2000 (and enabling or disabling Internet time has not helped address this behavior)

Anyway, the inconsistent period of the lockups, the black vs. garbled screen, and the inconsistent date issue have me completely puzzled. i'd think if it was the CMOS battery then whatever is screwing with the date would send it to 1/1/2000 and i'd get some CMOS alert in the BIOS at start, and if it was the CPU or PSU the date would be a non-issue. So still leaning towards the battery or the mobo, but wanted to see what the experts here might recommend before I start RMAing everything. THANKS much for your help!

 

[FliGi7]

Are you monitoring the temps on your CPU cores to make sure the CPU is not overheating?

 

[vettejock99]

Yes, and it sits about 48-49 when not under load, and usually gets up to around 60 C when under loads like watching a movie and playing music simultaneously.

 

[FliGi7]

What about your graphics card temps?

If you haven't already done so, you'll want to configure your computer to generate a memory dump when it freezes/crashes so that it can be analyzed:

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/174459-dump-files-configure-windows-create-bsod.html

Also, you might want to try running a system health report:

System Health Report - Vista Forums

It could very well be a corrupt driver, which can be verified checked by running "sfc /scannow" from an elevated command prompt. When you reinstall the OS, you must load the proper drivers from either the manufacturer's website or use Windows Update to get them. Sometimes, one or the other will cause an issue.

 

[vettejock99]

I am using the integrated video only, and the sensor temps all appear fine. I have run sfc /scannow from an elevated prompt repeatedly and it has never turned up an issue. It is non actually going to a BSOD or crashing in that sense, more of a lockup with or without a blank screen, and so I've got it configured to capture a dump but it doesn't generate one. i forgot to mention I've checked all the event viewer logs and no strangeness there, either. I ran the perform as instructed in the link you sent me but it shows no flags other than the fact I have UAC disabled and I don't auto-check for windows update (both intentional, and my windows updates are up to date).

This is all making me believe more and more it isn't software, but hardware. Agree? Ever seen a system clock do this kind of behavior?

 

[FliGi7]

When you reloaded Windows, where did you get all of the drivers for your system? What software do you have loaded on your system? It's not advised to disable UAC as there are rarely reasons to do so that offset the risk added in doing that.

It really could be either hardware or software related. How have you run your memory tests and what have you used to test it? Does your PC get proper ventilation?

 

[emaraszek]

This is all making me believe more and more it isn't software, but hardware. Agree? Ever seen a system clock do this kind of behavior?

I agree.

These symptoms are commonly caused by defective RAM. Download OCCT from the following link and try running some RAM tests.

Download

I also recommend testing each stick individually, meaning take one stick out of your machine while your testing it, then repeat the process on the next stick

 

[FliGi7]

That software doesn't test memory from the description on the site and what their screenshots show.

Memtest86+ is pretty much the defacto standard for testing memory. The sticks don't initially need to be stress tested separately. You'd only need/want to do that after errors were found or if you were trying to test them by just using the system.

 

[mitchell65]

I had a very similar problem 6 months ago and it turned out to be a dodgy memory module! Memtest should locate it but perhaps as you have just two modules, how about taking one out and seeing if it happens then swop over modules. Just a thought!

 

[emaraszek]

That software doesn't test memory from the description on the site and what their screenshots show.

Incorrect. Using the CPU Linpack test you can test the RAM.

I recommend this software from experience as it was the only program to pick up on faulty RAM that I had in the past

Memtest86+ is pretty much the defacto standard for testing memory. The sticks don't initially need to be stress tested separately. You'd only need/want to do that after errors were found or if you were trying to test them by just using the system.

I recommend things that I have personally seen work, "defacto" or not. I'm not sure how you could ever recommend not testing the sticks individually especially with the large amount of RAM the OP has.

The reasons for it are plentiful. You can determine whether or not both sticks are defective or just one. You can also make sure you are testing the specific stick where as running tests with both sticks inserted doesn't necessarily utilize enough RAM to test both sticks.

 

[FliGi7]

Incorrect. Using the CPU Linpack test you can test the RAM.

I recommend this software from experience as it was the only program to pick up on faulty RAM that I had in the past

You are right, I didn't see the Linpack tab on the screenshot and the site only refers to CPU testing. Although, I don't see how a Linpack memory test would find something that Memtest would not. But, it doesn't always make sense.

I recommend things that I have personally seen work, "defacto" or not. I'm not sure how you could ever recommend not testing the sticks individually especially with the large amount of RAM the OP has.

The reasons for it are plentiful. You can determine whether or not both sticks are defective or just one. You can also make sure you are testing the specific stick where as running tests with both sticks inserted doesn't necessarily utilize enough RAM to test both sticks.

I didn't recommend not testing both sticks of memory to determine which is defective. I recommended testing it all together at first as it as it's simply a waste of time up front testing them individually if there's no memory errors. Seems pretty straight forward to me. This is why I said "don't initially need". If there are errors, then of course you're going to test them individually. That wasn't what I was addressing.

Although, I'm not sure what information you're using to back up the statement that with both sticks inserted you don't necessarily utilize enough RAM to test both sticks. Where have you seen this or read about this? Any memory testing software wouldn't serve its purpose if it didn't test the entire memory space, which programs like Memtest do. It runs the entire address space which you can watch as it does it.

 

[mitchell65]

with the large amount of RAM the OP has.

It's 8gb on just two sticks, that's not that high and that's why I suggested running with just oneodule installed to test it!

 

[emaraszek]

There are many unexplained anomalies with memory testing. One program will tell you everything is fine after 2 hours of testing while another will fail within 5 minutes.

From my experience, you're more likely to find problems if you test individually. So if you test together and don't come up with any errors from your perspective you should stop testing? Why would you first test in a way that is less likely to throw up errors and only test in a more reliable way if you get errors the first time. Seems backwards to me.

Not only that but the symptoms the OP is experiencing already suggest a memory issue so why even bother testing in an unreliable way?

 

[emaraszek]

with the large amount of RAM the OP has.

It's 8gb on just two sticks, that's not that high and that's why I suggested running with just oneodule installed to test it!

If it's high enough that it can run on just half, it's high enough to fail a memory test if both sticks are inserted. Why are you disputing what I said when I agree with you?

 

[FliGi7]

There are many unexplained anomalies with memory testing. One program will tell you everything is fine after 2 hours of testing while another will fail within 5 minutes.

From my experience, you're more likely to find problems if you test individually. So if you test together and don't come up with any errors from your perspective you should stop testing? Why would you first test in a way that is less likely to throw up errors and only test in a more reliable way if you get errors the first time. Seems backwards to me.

Not only that but the symptoms the OP is experiencing already suggest a memory issue so why even bother testing in an unreliable way?

I think the difference here is that you see that somehow memory testing programs are prone to false negatives, whereas I haven't had that experience. Memtest86+, which I and many others use as a standard for memory testing, tests the complete address space over and over until you stop it. So, I'm still curious to know where you heard/saw that certain memory programs don't test the whole address space, as I asked you in my previous post. Can you provide that reference?

Nothing the OP has stated points directly to a memory issue, rather it's one of several possibilities for the stated issue of random freezing. It could be a motherboard issue, a hard drive issue, a driver issue, a memory issue... all can present in the same way the OP is stating, which is why we're trying to dig down deeper to figure it out. It could very well be a memory issue, but to rule everything else out at this point is premature. There simply isn't enough information to do that. We want to provide the OP with as many options as possible to figure this out as the root causes of such seemingly random errors like this can often be surprising.

 

[emaraszek]

I never said I've seen any specific reference to how memory test applications work, I was simply stating what I think based on previous experience. An article on the web about memory applications isn't going to help the OP, which is what I'm here to do, not debate you.

As far as the reliability of memtest86+, I'm certainly not the first to find that it has shown defective RAM as perfectly fine, Google it if you don't believe me. In several cases I have used memtest86+ for hours and it hasn't found any problems with the given RAM. However, after putting the same RAM through a much more intensive task with OCCT it failed within 5 minutes.

The steps I outlined have always worked for me when testing for defective RAM so why wouldn't I recommend them?

Nothing the OP has stated points directly to a memory issue, rather it's one of several possibilities for the stated issue of random freezing. It could be a motherboard issue, a hard drive issue, a driver issue, a memory issue... all can present in the same way the OP is stating, which is why we're trying to dig down deeper to figure it out.

So your idea of getting to the bottom of this is dismissing my ideas? I think it sounds like a RAM issue because I've been down this road before; the same symptoms may indicate the same problem. However, I never once ruled anything completely out or said that I knew exactly what was wrong. I simply provided guidance on what I have found to be the most effective way to test RAM.

Nothing points to a memory issue? Perhaps you need to read up on the symptoms of bad RAM:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5019960_symptoms-bad-ram-computer.html

Distorted graphics, as the OP mentioned experiencing, is a common sign as well as random lockups (also mentioned), BSODs, and boot failures.

 

[FliGi7]

I never said I've seen any specific reference to how memory test applications work, I was simply stating what I think based on previous experience. An article on the web about memory applications isn't going to help the OP, which is what I'm here to do, not debate you.

The reasons for it are plentiful. You can determine whether or not both sticks are defective or just one. You can also make sure you are testing the specific stick where as running tests with both sticks inserted doesn't necessarily utilize enough RAM to test both sticks.

That is making a statement strongly insinuating that some tools don't utilize enough RAM to test both sticks. That is not just stating what you think, that's stating what you think to come across as a fact in order to boost your argument. So, we now have it that's your opinion and not actually shown or proven anywhere. That's all I wanted to know since you were trying to pass it off as a factual argument. It's not about debating, it's about disproving misleading statements that you're trying to make appear as fact that aren't so. That's what I'm here to do. We have enough people on here that try to do that.

As far as the reliability of memtest86+, I'm certainly not the first to find that it has shown defective RAM as perfectly fine, Google it if you don't believe me. In several cases I have used memtest86+ for hours and it hasn't found any problems with the given RAM. However, after putting the same RAM through a much more intensive task with OCCT it failed within 5 minutes.

The steps I outlined have always worked for me when testing for defective RAM so why wouldn't I recommend them?

No one said it was perfect, as any tool can provide false positives or negatives. The point is that it's as good, or better, than enough other testing software that many people use it as a standard testing tool. That was, and is, my only point regarding this. I have nothing against your suggested tool at all, which I don't think you're understanding. Initially I didn't see that it tested memory, which I immediately corrected once you showed me it does. No one is arguing that you shouldn't recommend what has worked for you. Your getting defensive is clouding you from seeing that.

So your idea of getting to the bottom of this is dismissing my ideas? I think it sounds like a RAM issue because I've been down this road before; the same symptoms may indicate the same problem. However, I never once ruled anything completely out or said that I knew exactly what was wrong. I simply provided guidance on what I have found to be the most effective way to test RAM.
Nothing points to a memory issue? Perhaps you need to read up on the symptoms of bad RAM:

Symptoms of Bad RAM in a Computer | eHow.com

Distorted graphics, as the OP mentioned experiencing, is a common sign as well as random lockups (also mentioned), BSODs, and boot failures.

I'm not dismissing your ideas, I'm only steering people away from getting tunnel vision of a memory issue when there's no definitive information to say it is. You're saying you think it is a RAM issue and I'm saying it's possible but there's no information proving it is, so you can't rule anything else out. Test for memory but also test everything else.

Your apparent argument for this is that because memory failure can present in this fashion, then that points, specifically, to this being a memory problem over anything else, but that's a failure of logic. As I stated before, and I'll state again, there are several other components of failure that can present in the same way. So, again, having these symptoms does not preclude everything else that can present in the same way. If 4 things can cause program hangs, system freezes, and crashes, then obviously no one of them is the immediate culprit without further failures specific to one of the component. A doctor doesn't treat everyone coming in with a sore throat specifically for Mono simply because a sore throat is a common symptom of Mono. That wouldn't be sound practice.

 

[emaraszek]

Seriously? It's pathetic that you have to write an essay on my recommendations.

The fact is memtest86 has repeatedly given me false negatives. My advice was to use something else.

If anyone wants to take my advice feel free. Sorry for helping, I won't participate in this thread anymore.

Maybe you can now use your time I actually help the OP instead of criticizing me

 

[vettejock99]

I missed the notification of replies there for a couple of hours. I have run MemTest86+ for a couple hours with no errors reported. I'll give the OCCT version a whirl, but I'm starting to really look at the motherboard as the culprit because of the clock issue. If I run OCCT through for a couple of hours with no errors will I still need to pull and swap sticks to see if 1 is going bad?

 

[FliGi7]

Seriously? It's pathetic that you have to write an essay on my recommendations.

The fact is memtest86 has repeatedly given me false negatives. My advice was to use something else.

If anyone wants to take my advice feel free. Sorry for helping, I won't participate in this thread anymore.

Maybe you can now use your time I actually help the OP instead of criticizing me

Unfortunately, essay-like responses are necessary to dispel all of the disinformation or misdirected retaliation in your posts. Addressing all of those things are actually in help of the OP and anyone else coming across this thread to not go down the tunnel you have when troubleshooting these types of issues. Don't shoot the messenger. You continue to either misread or just not read the points I'm making so the choice to not participate given that lack of ability is probably the better choice at this point. For the record, I have/had nothing against your suggestions or recommendations, just some of the information you've put out which has been inaccurate. I'm sorry you have gotten so defensive about it. It's nothing personal.

I missed the notification of replies there for a couple of hours. I have run MemTest86+ for a couple hours with no errors reported. I'll give the OCCT version a whirl, but I'm starting to really look at the motherboard as the culprit because of the clock issue. If I run OCCT through for a couple of hours with no errors will I still need to pull and swap sticks to see if 1 is going bad?

Testing with both tools would be a good idea. If you get no memory errors with those two testing tools, the odds are very unlikely that it's memory-related, or at least unlikely enough to the point that your time is better served moving on to testing other things. There would be no need to pull or swap sticks at that point, given no errors, but you could if you'd like to.