Something Odd going on at Linedrive Cloud Storage

[Anak]

Saw this at: Livedrive Users, You Need To Read This.

Then this on the unofficial forum: Unofficial Livedrive Forum | View topic - Excessive bandwidth

 

[ThrashZone]

Usually the terms for use are more restrictive than the benefits of the service,
Cloud will no doubt turn into a new way to make a quick buck and gain access to free information,
Cheers.

 

[Layback Bear]

I'm Bad because I won't stop laughing for at least a hour.
How much is to much when it's unlimited.
The answer must be lost somewhere in legaleeze.

 

[Anak]

I'm still shaking my head, there has to be an oxymoron in there somewhere - excessive use of an unlimited service.

But you're right about the legaleeze Jack, it's tied in with:

Section 20. Subsection f - Termination:
20. In the event of a material breach by you of these Terms, we retain the right to suspend or terminate these Services to you without any notice to you. If we terminate for a material breach of these terms, no refund of any fees paid will be offered. It shall constitute a material breach of these Terms if we have a reasonable belief that you:

f. use the Services in a manner that results in excessive bandwidth usage, as determined by us;

Then in;

Acceptable Use
You agree not to misuse the Livedrive Services. For example, you must not, and must not attempt to, use the Services to do the following things.

4. Interfere with or disrupt any user, host, or network, for example by sending a virus, overloading, flooding, spamming, or mail-bombing any part of the Services;

As determined by us.

Livedrive terms of service | Livedrive
​

There are all kinds of examples, here's one from Comcast terminating a grandmother for voting on American Idol too much, Comcast considered it phone spam.

Comcast told one DC-area grandmother that she could no longer be a Comcast Internet Voice subscriber after she cast an immense amount of votes for an "American Idol" contestant. According to local DC Fox affiliate Fox 5, Comcast sent the notification after the woman called the "American Idol" hotline "several hundred times in an hour." The 72-year-old woman was confused by the termination letter because Comcast advertises its Digital Voice service as unlimited, a word that generally means the exact opposite in telecommunications markets.

Source: Comcast Fires Grandma For Using Unlimited Phone Too Much - 'Unlimited' Voice Doesn't Include Spamming American Idol | DSLReports, ISP Information

I believe for phones, unlimited refers to length of call (minutes) not how many times you can call in an hour.
​

 

[A Guy]

I went down the street to the 24-hour grocery.
When I got there, the guy was locking the front door.
I said, 'Hey, the sign says you're open 24 hours.'
He said, 'Yes, but not in a row.'
~Steven Wright

A Guy

 

[Layback Bear]

The good old days when auto dial was putting your finger in the dial and turning it
seven more times.

 

[jimbo45]

Saw this at: Livedrive Users, You Need To Read This.

Then this on the unofficial forum: Unofficial Livedrive Forum | View topic - Excessive bandwidth

Hi there

It's very easy to post this type of stuff - usually you are quite good with your sources - but in the small print was there a "Fair Usage Policy" or "...if deemed to be using an excessive amount...." type of clause in the small print when people signed up.

It's the same usually with "Unlimited" broadband / mobile phone call hours etc etc".

IMO if the contract states UNLIMITED - well my English might not be as good as other people's but then does that not mean WITHOUT LIMIT. Therefore ANY restriction on an "UNLIMITED" use should mean that the service is NOT UNLIMITED and the contract accordingly is a contradiction and must then be invalid. -- Interesting to see if someone is willing to test this argument in some sensible Court of Law. Any Lawyers on this Forum - please !!.

However it shows the danger of using services over which you have NO control and you've signed up to what is essentially an "arbitrary case" -- do they have a definition of "excessive use" -- so you don't actually know what you are signing up to.

Incidentally some of these ENTIRE servers can get shut down if people store pirated and copyrighted material on them and share with others - so while this won't affect "Corporate Cloud Servers" it could well result in some consumer orientated servers from blocking your access.

The only stuff I'd store on any cloud server is stuff I could afford to lose - or data I don't care about - and usually that's not very much anyway.

@ A GUY -- about the 24 hr Grocery --

surely you must have also seen those large signs outside many Irish Pubs -- "Free Beer Tomorrow" !!.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Computer0304]

@jimbo45 Yep by tommorow it could mean the day after any day. It could be a old banner, or it could be a new one that is upcoming.

The dictionary definiton of unlimited according to the Oxford Dictionary website is the following:

1. Not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent

This means that their service is NOT unlimited so it is limited. If it is unlimited, an infinite amount of bandwith should be available to the customer. There should be a clear warning of this because some people could get badly damaged by this especially if for work. No wonder why it is only 3 euros per month for "UNLIMITED" storage.

And I apologize for the fully capitalised words, I was trying to emphasize those words.

 

[Anak]

Saw this at: Livedrive Users, You Need To Read This.

Then this on the unofficial forum: Unofficial Livedrive Forum | View topic - Excessive bandwidth

Hi there

It's very easy to post this type of stuff - usually you are quite good with your sources - but in the small print was there a "Fair Usage Policy" or "...if deemed to be using an excessive amount...." type of clause in the small print when people signed up.

Usually?

Hmm...Maybe that's why I looked up the legaleeze for Layback Bear. Did you miss my #4 Post?

 

[Layback Bear]

When something has limits it should be in BOLD print up front.

Where is the E.U. on this matter. I know; it's not Microsoft so it must be okay to hide the restrictions.

I believe their must be some sort of restriction to hinder misuse. I don't have a problem with that but why hide the restrictions.
Their is a easy way to solve the problem.
1. No use of the word (unrestricted) when their is restrictions.
2. Listing of the restrictions in BOLD PRINT up front on the first page of any agreements.
3. A one time message to the misuser explaining the problem and agreement before shutting them out.

These things are not hard to do and doesn't cost a lot of money.

Problem solved.

 

[jimbo45]

When something has limits it should be in BOLD print up front.

Where is the E.U. on this matter. I know; it's not Microsoft so it must be okay to hide the restrictions.

I believe their must be some sort of restriction to hinder misuse. I don't have a problem with that but why hide the restrictions.
Their is a easy way to solve the problem.
1. No use of the word (unrestricted) when their is restrictions.
2. Listing of the restrictions in BOLD PRINT up front on the first page of any agreements.
3. A one time message to the misuser explaining the problem and agreement before shutting them out.

These things are not hard to do and doesn't cost a lot of money.

Problem solved.

Hi there

Agree totally -- put conditions in front of the user signing up for the service so they know what they are buying - and then I don't think anybody has a problem with that.

Whichever way you cut it if a service is advertised as UNLIMITED and then has restrictions then the contract is INVALID and invalid contracts in most jurisdictions cannot be enforced -- at the very least you should get a total refund since the service you were buying wasn't either what you signed up to or you were being sold a meaningless and unenforceable contract (in common Law).

Cheers
jimbo

 

[scr]

When something has limits it should be in BOLD print up front.

Where is the E.U. on this matter. I know; it's not Microsoft so it must be okay to hide the restrictions.

I believe their must be some sort of restriction to hinder misuse. I don't have a problem with that but why hide the restrictions.
Their is a easy way to solve the problem.
1. No use of the word (unrestricted) when their is restrictions.
2. Listing of the restrictions in BOLD PRINT up front on the first page of any agreements.
3. A one time message to the misuser explaining the problem and agreement before shutting them out.

These things are not hard to do and doesn't cost a lot of money.

Problem solved.

Hi there

Agree totally -- put conditions in front of the user signing up for the service so they know what they are buying - and then I don't think anybody has a problem with that.

Whichever way you cut it if a service is advertised as UNLIMITED and then has restrictions then the contract is INVALID and invalid contracts in most jurisdictions cannot be enforced -- at the very least you should get a total refund since the service you were buying wasn't either what you signed up to or you were being sold a meaningless and unenforceable contract (in common Law).

Cheers
jimbo

The language of ambiguity = Contracts

The use of the word "Unlimited" will always be defined later in the contract. The use of "Unlimited data" will always be defined later in the contract. For example "You have Unlimited Access to the Internet and Unlimited Data." Which should be clear enough but at the end of the contract they always have the definitions. "We do not guarantee that you will have access to the Internet at all times" .. "For the purpose of this contract "Unlimited Data" shall mean no more then 300 mb of Data in a 24 hour period." .. "Data shall mean the total of incoming and out going traffic combined."

The last reference be it a definition or otherwise will take precedence over all definitions or references written before it in the contract. This is what they use to remove the ambiguity by declaring the purpose and clarification. Any time I read a contract that I am considering I always start at the end.

It may not even be in the contract but referred to in another document such as a TOS or Rules and Regulations which by reference becomes a fully enforceable part of the contract even if it's not attached to the contract. "All terms and conditions of the TOS/Rules and Regulations shall be enforceable and considered a part of this contract." If you don't ask for the TOS or rules and regulations it's not their problem.

I always looked at contracts as if I'm standing on a three legged chair with a rope around my neck and they have a running chain saw. I've walked away from a good number of three legged chairs.

Basically, and it's sad to say, if they are in business and offering me a contract I don't trust them or the contract, call it life lessons if you will.

 

[HammerHead]

Decisions......Decisions

I am totally against storing data on a device that someone else has control of. It is things like this that caused me to avoid the cloud.

 

[andrew129260]

I am totally against storing data on a device that someone else has control of. It is things like this that caused me to avoid the cloud.

agreed

 

[Layback Bear]

My head has been in a could for a long time and that is exactly why I don't want my Data in a cloud.

 

[Computer0304]

I only use cloud storage for non-personal files that I want to share anyway.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Clouds and Birds bring anything to mind ==> Cloud Cuckoo Land for example.

@Computer0304 - Be aware if using servers to store Pirated / copyrighted data on them (movies from Torrents for example) then THE WHOLE SERVER can get shut down -- remember what happened to MEGAUPLOAD server not so long ago.

Even if YOU are entirely innocent the WHOLE server can be taken down, your entire data scanned and analyzed by Police, Interpol, CIA, MOSSAD or any other "security agency" on the planet (depending on where the server is physically located).

While Corporate cloud servers have some use I'd never rely on a PUBLIC Cloud server for anything that a) I didn't want to lose, and b) any PRIVATE data I didn't want other people trawling through at will if the server is seized.

@Scr - it would be interesting for someone to test in a proper Court of Law exactly how a CONTRACT is meant to be specified -- I'm sure if you have TWO conflicting positions - IS UNLIMITED or IS NOT UNLIMITED then this surely must rank as an invalid contract AND SHOULD NOT BE OFFERED in the form its presented in. (External factors such as Internet connections, speed, ISP bandwidth etc are not relevant here either).

Obviously the Server provider can't provide 100% access to the Internet -- however the service provides that WHEN CONNECTED you can have UNLIMITED DATA -- well either you can or you cannot. If you cannot then offering it is then a contradiction and will be deemed as invalid.

The Courts can't mess around with the English Language otherwise nobody would be able to Prosecute or Defend any action whatsoever. Limitations by your ISP provider are external to the service offered here. IMO this whole contract should be re-worded entirely and it would be great if someone could get their fee back because the contract was deemd invalid.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Phill3990]

I only use Onedrive for university work to make it easier to access my work on multiple systems. That's as far as cloud goes for me, I keep all of my personal, sensitive and important documents or an external HD or USB stick. Today with all the ID theft and stealing/selling information I don't trust most websites with my information. Everyone wants information about us and generally they get it!

"Relying on the government to protect your privacy is like asking a peeping tom to install your window blinds."
John Perry Barlow

Phill3990

 

[Computer0304]

I already said Jimbo, I use it for things I want to share on game forums like maps so I don't care if it is scanned. It would be public anyway where anyone can get it if they find it. Nothing private or personal, things that I want to be known.

 

[scr]

Hi there

@Scr - it would be interesting for someone to test in a proper Court of Law exactly how a CONTRACT is meant to be specified -- I'm sure if you have TWO conflicting positions - IS UNLIMITED or IS NOT UNLIMITED then this surely must rank as an invalid contract AND SHOULD NOT BE OFFERED in the form its presented in. (External factors such as Internet connections, speed, ISP bandwidth etc are not relevant here either).

Obviously the Server provider can't provide 100% access to the Internet -- however the service provides that WHEN CONNECTED you can have UNLIMITED DATA -- well either you can or you cannot. If you cannot then offering it is then a contradiction and will be deemed as invalid.

The Courts can't mess around with the English Language otherwise nobody would be able to Prosecute or Defend any action whatsoever. Limitations by your ISP provider are external to the service offered here. IMO this whole contract should be re-worded entirely and it would be great if someone could get their fee back because the contract was deemd invalid.

Cheers
jimbo

Here's some interesting reading, well sort of, don't let your eyes glaze over. http://idiom.ucsd.edu/~schane/law/ambiguity.pdf