Solved Windows 7 Backup

[Firefox1701]

Hello all,


To explain what I'm trying to do, I have a primary 1TB HDD and an internal 1TB backup HDD ( C and D drives respectively ). The D drive is failing. The plan is to image ( rather than clone; my understanding is that this is a better, less-risk option ) the existing C drive to a new external 1TB HDD, then restore from that image to a new internal 1TB SSD. The 1TB SSD will then become the primary drive, and the old 1TB HDD that was previously the C drive will become the new D ( internal backup ) drive.



I'm sure these will seem like silly questions to the more experienced users, but before embarking on this, can anyone tell me:


Various internet resources say that Windows 7 Backup will make an image on an external hard drive of literally everything on the originating drive, including all programmes, customisations of programmes, data files, and the operating system itself. But surely, it can't back up itself while it's actually being used, can it?


Does Windows 7 Backup create an image that is complete down to, essentially, the last zero and one on the originating drive?


Presumably, all other programmes and files have to be closed while the backup is in progress ( which kind of brings me back to the question of how it can take an image of itself while it's in use ...! )?


Various resources mention the 'restore' function; but, if the primary hard drive were to crash irretrievably, the native 'restore' function would obviously be unavailable. Is this where the 'create system restore disc' comes into play? - and if so, would that be the same process you'd use if you wanted to restore the imaged backup to a new drive?



As I say, I'm sure these will seem like silly questions to the more experienced users ... to be honest, a couple of them sound a bit iffy even to me! ... but better safe than sorry. As a matter of interest, I'm working on the assumption that I can do all of this using the native Windows 7 Backup facility ... does that sound right, or do I really need to get a third-party cloning / imaging programme like Macrium etc.?

All input very gratefully received!

 

[SIW2]

But surely, it can't back up itself while it's actually being used, can it?

Of course it can, that is the point of it.

Presumably, all other programmes and files have to be closed while the backup is in progress

No. But it will go more slowly if you are doing other things.

Does Windows 7 Backup create an image that is complete down to, essentially, the last zero and one on the originating drive?

Some things are not included in the image, for example any existing system restore points and other stuff that is recreated on boot up - pagefile, hiberfile

Is this where the 'create system restore disc' comes into play? - and if so, would that be the same process you'd use if you wanted to restore the imaged backup to a new drive?

Yes and yes. If you have installation media the image restore functions are already on that, so you don't necessarily need a "system repair disc" as well.

 

[samuria]

Welcome to the forum. Assuming the disk has bad blocks on no account do a clone or image as this will copy bad blocks to a new drive which cant be reversed. The other thing is a lot of files may be corrupt so there is no point in copying anything. If you want to copy anything use built in robocopy or simliar as this just copies data and if it finds corrupted files it will tell you and not copy bad blocks

 

[SIW2]

You haven't explained why you think the disk is having problems. Did you run chkdsk yet?

From your first post:

I have a primary 1TB HDD and an internal 1TB backup HDD ( C and D drives respectively ). The D drive is failing. The plan is to image ( rather than clone; my understanding is that this is a better, less-risk option ) the existing C drive to a new external 1TB HDD, then restore from that image to a new internal 1TB SSD.

The disk containing your operating system ( which you call c drive) is fine.

The other disk ( which you call d drive) has problems.

If so, then you shouldn't have any difficulty imaging your operating system.

If you are thinking of imaging a disk which already has problems:
If the disk is not in too bad shape, making an image now is sensible.
Depending on the damage, it might fail while you are imaging, or whatever is wrong with the disk might prevent a system image from being completed properly.
The same caveats apply to any type of imaging/cloning once a disk is having problems.

 

[Firefox1701]

Firstly, apologies for the somewhat clunky and obviously-not-completely-clear initial explanation.
To answer the questions asked so far:

You haven't explained why you think the disk is having problems. Did you run chkdsk yet?

No, is the short answer, but twice when I've re-started the computer over the course of the last month or so, a message has appeared saying that the D drive is failing. To be honest, I've taken it at face value.

The disk containing your operating system ( which you call c drive) is fine.
The other disk ( which you call d drive) has problems.
If so, then you shouldn't have any difficulty imaging your operating system.
If you are thinking of imaging a disk which already has problems:
If the disk is not in too bad shape, making an image now is sensible.
Depending on the damage, it might fail while you are imaging, or whatever is wrong with the disk might prevent a system image from being completed properly.
The same caveats apply to any type of imaging/cloning once a disk is having problems.

The first two statements are correct, and, I think, so is the third ( I'll come back to that ). The D drive is purely a backup drive containing data only; it has nothing directly to do with the operating system, which is on my existing C drive, a 1TB HDD. Since the D drive itself only contains copied files, I have no need to be taking a copy, clone or image from it.

Assuming the disk has bad blocks on no account do a clone or image as this will copy bad blocks to a new drive which cant be reversed. The other thing is a lot of files may be corrupt so there is no point in copying anything. If you want to copy anything use built in robocopy or simliar as this just copies data and if it finds corrupted files it will tell you and not copy bad blocks

To the best of my knowledge, the C drive from which I'm taking the image is in good condition. Although I have some limited knowledge, it is limited, as you'll have gathered, and it stops a little short of knowing what bad blocks are; however, the C drive is what it is, and since it contains the operating system, one way or another, that's what I need to image or clone. I don't know if 'built-in robocopy' refers to the Windows Backup facility - I suspect not - but the object is to create an image which I can use to duplicate the operating system to a new internal SSD drive.
With regard to the most recent post from SIW2: as I said, I'm sure some of my questions would seem obvious to a more experienced user ... on the face of it, it seemed to me that using the Windows Backup facility to take an image of everything including itself was sort of like trying to take a picture of the camera you were using to take the picture with. Still: now I know different, and that's why I needed to ask the question!
By the same token, I guessed that if other programmes were in use at the time, and therefore files being used by those programmes were in a 'state of flux' as it were, to return to the camera analogy, it would be like trying to take video footage using a Kodak Instamatic. Again, I take your response at face value, and thank you for it.
Once again the limits of my knowledge come into play, but my impression is that the things that are not copied in the course of this process are things that you don't need copied anyway, in order to achieve what I'm seeking to achieve. Fingers crossed that I'm right ...!
As for the final thing about the System Restore disc, I haven't got to that stage yet, but will bear it in mind. Out of interest, does it literally have to be a disc, as in CD or DVD, or could it be something like an external hard drive or flash-drive?
... phew ...
Armed with your various input, I gave this a shot last night. It took around nine hours in all, which I gather is not particularly unusual; I was copying from the C drive ( 1TB HDD ) to an external 2TB HDD via USB3 cable. However ...
The C drive shows 240 GB of 931 GB free; so presumably, 691 GB used. What I've ended up with on the portable HDD is one file titled 'Indoor' ( the name given to this computer when it was first built, to distinguish it from my studio computer ), a folder titled 'WindowsImageBackup', and a file titled MediaID.bin. I assume, in the absence of any knowledge to the contrary, that this is as it should be...?
As yet, I haven't bought the new SSD, so not yet in a position to try restoring this image with a view to making the SSD the new primary drive ... one thing at a time! ... but at the stage I'm at so far, these are the new questions:
Firstly, given that only 691 GB of the original HDD is used, the portable 2TB HDD is showing 930GB free out of 1.81TB. If I'm doing my sums right, that means the image has occupied 880GB of space. Does this make sense? ( Again: apologies if this is a stupid question! )
Finally, assuming I've done everything right so far ...
I'm thinking in terms of buying a Samsung SSD to be the new primary drive, it being the case that I've had numerous recommendations. Three of the eight possibilities on the Samsung website are NVME, which I gather is the thing to have; however ( granted that none of you have a crystal ball ), is it likely that my computer, built around ten years ago, would be compatible with this ( without any additional modifications, given that I'm provisionally hoping to attempt the procedure myself )? I'm in the process of narrowing down the possibilities, and that would narrow the field to five, which would be a good start!
Again, all input gratefully received, and thank you all for your indulgence!

 

[RolandJS]

I believe your backup plan is aok! I recommend doing two Intelligent Copy backups onto external media; one backup after another. That way, if one backup/restore program fails to do a restore, the other one probably will work just fine. Intelligent Copy is a Macrium Reflect phrase that simply means: sector single pass and un-used sectors not copied.
The above "dual" idea may not be feasible or economical, at least do one backup set onto external media.

 

[Bree]

What I've ended up with on the portable HDD is one file titled 'Indoor' ( the name given to this computer when it was first built, to distinguish it from my studio computer ), a folder titled 'WindowsImageBackup', and a file titled MediaID.bin. I assume, in the absence of any knowledge to the contrary, that this is as it should be...?

Yes, that all looks as it should be. You have asked Backup & Restore to performed both a backup of your user files and include a System Image. The two serve different purposes.

The folder with the PC's name on the root of the external drive is a backup of your user files and folders. They have been stored in a series of multiple .zip files, Backup & Restore can be used to retrieve one or more files from this Backup Set.

The WindowsImageBackup folder also contains a folder with the name of your PC. This contains images of the partition(s) of the drive(s) of the PC you backed up. By default only the partition(s) required to restore the working system have been backed up. Partitions that are just used for data are not needed, but can optionally be included in the image.

You need to boot to the recovery environment in order to restore the system image. You should have been offer the chance to create a recovery CD at the end of backing up the system image. You can boot from this if you need to restore the system image.

 

[Firefox1701]

Again, thank you all for your input.
The new SSD is on it's way ( a 1 TB Samsung 860 EVO ). The only things I'm still not sure about are:

• Not that it matters that much, given the size of the external hard drive, but how come 691GB on the original C drive occupied 880GB when imaged on to the external one?
• That aside: re the recovery disc, I don't recall that option being offered when I did the image, but it may be that I just overlooked it. Presumably it can be created after the event?
• ... and does it in fact have to be a disc, or could it be a flash drive?
• I'm assuming, given what it is that I'm aiming to achieve, that the aforesaid recovery disc ( or flash drive ) is what will allow me to restore the image from the external hard drive on to the new SSD when it arrives, and I'm assuming that that will then allow me to treat the new SSD as my primary drive - which is to say, if I unplug the existing C drive, plug in the new SSD, restore the image to it and then attempt to restart the computer, it will automatically recognised the SSD as the new C drive and essentially carry on as though nothing had happened ( but hopefully a lot faster ) ... yes?If that all works and I then plug the old 1TB HDD C drive back in with the intention of using it as the new D drive ( i.e. internal backup ), will there be any conflict in the fact that the identical operating system will then exist on both drives?
• And last but not least, assuming that all works, once I've created the system restore disc / flash drive, can I use that every time I do this, or do I need to create a new system restore disc / flash drive each time?

Once again, all, thank you for your indulgence, and all information gratefully received.

 

[SIW2]

Probably shadow storage. It is created to allow the image to be used for system restore points, and when you make a new image, older blocks are moved into shadow storage.

You will need to be able to boot to media that contains the system image restore program. Either a "repair disc", or the installation media.

The image restore functions are exactly the same on both.

you don't need to keep remaking it.

it will automatically recognised the SSD as the new C drive and essentially carry on as though nothing had happened ( but hopefully a lot faster ) ... yes?

yes

I then plug the old 1TB HDD C drive back in ...will there be any conflict

If it is first in the bios boot order and has an active flag set in the mbr executable code, the machine might attempt to boot from the old disk. That is a function of the motherboard bios, and nothing to do with the imaging program.

 

[Bree]

Not that it matters that much, given the size of the external hard drive, but how come 691GB on the original C drive occupied 880GB when imaged on to the external one?

You user files have been backed up twice, once in the files and folders backup, but they are also in the system image backup.

 

[Firefox1701]

I should preface this by saying that I'm really not as obtuse as this is making me look.


Thanks again to Bree and SIW2.

You user files have been backed up twice, once in the files and folders backup, but they are also in the system image backup.

Probably shadow storage.

Fair enough.

you don't need to keep remaking it.

Also fair enough.
However, the whole recovery process is what I'm still fuzzy about, partly, I think, as a result of my failure to understand all of the terms being used.
From my last post:

re the recovery disc, I don't recall that option being offered when I did the image, but it may be that I just overlooked it. Presumably it can be created after the event?

... although, worst-case-scenario, if I just missed it first time round, I can always re-do the imaging process on to the portable hard drive; not the worst thing in the world, given how I'm intending to do backups in future.

You will need to be able to boot to media that contains the system image restore program. Either a "repair disc", or the installation media.

This is where the 'I'm really not that obtuse' assertion comes in.


I'm assuming that 'installation media' refers to the original Windows 7 installation CD. If that's the case, we can forget that option. My son installed this for me some ten years ago, and I know he's long since upgraded to Windows 10; I doubt he's even still got the original Windows 7 CD now, let alone being able to find it. I'm further assuming that a repair disc would be the disc that you're given the option of creating when you do the system image ( albeit that I missed it ...! ). If that's correct, this brings me back to my previous question: does the 'repair disc' or 'restore disc' literally have to be a disc? At risk of making myself seem even more dim than may well already be the case - and bearing in mind that the final object of the exercise is to have the new internal SSD as the primary C drive - could I, for example, either:

• Use a flash-drive ( or memory stick, or USB stick, or whatever the correct term ) in place of an actual disc?
• Create the 'system restore' programme on the same external hard drive that I've used to image the original C drive, rather than use any additional media of any kind? Or even ...
• Plug the new SSD in, and create the system restore programme on that?

As I say, I can almost see some of you rolling your eyes as you read this. In my defence, even though ( believe it or not ) when I was at school I won prizes for computer science, that was fifty years ago, the computer was as large as a sideboard and was the only one in the borough.

If it is first in the bios boot order and has an active flag set in the mbr executable code, the machine might attempt to boot from the old disk. That is a function of the motherboard bios, and nothing to do with the imaging program.

The bit I understood is 'nothing to do with the imaging programme'.
If I've removed the original C drive whilst doing the restore to the new SSD ( one way or another ), would the motherboard still regard the original C drive as 'first in the BIOS boot order' when it was subsequently plugged back in? - If so, there must presumably be some way around that?
Thanks once again for your indulgence. I do miss the old binary tape.

 

[SIW2]

I'm assuming that 'installation media' refers to the original Windows 7 installation CD. If that's the case, we can forget that option. My son installed this for me some ten years ago, and I know he's long since upgraded to Windows 10; I doubt he's even still got the original Windows 7 CD now

Not difficult to come by. Are you using win 7 Ultimate English?

could I, for example, either:

Use a flash-drive ( or memory stick, or USB stick, or whatever the correct term ) in place of an actual disc?

Yes, but the program built into win7 ( recdisc.exe) does not offer the option of direct to usb. You could use it create an iso file. Then extract the iso file to bootable usb using something like usb7 ice. Or you could use it to create a disc ( cd/dvd). Then copy the contents of the disc to bootable usb.

View attachment Usb7ice.zip

Or better still, you can download recovery media with extra features that somebody else has already created and extract the .iso to usb using usb7ice or similar

17514x86.iso
17514x64v15.iso

 

[SIW2]

Firefox1701

It is useful to have installation media because:

1. It contains the "system recovery options" which can be used for various repair functions.

It is explained in Option 2 here: System Recovery Options


2. It contains all the files for a complete reinstall should you ever want to do that


3. It can be used to perform what is called a "repair install" which in essence replaces the system files with the originals and retains your programs and settings.

It is silly not to have installation media.

 

[SIW2]

Installation media can come on a dvd or it can come as an iso file.

An iso file can be burned to blank dvd.

Or an iso file can be extracted to a usb stick to create a bootable usb.

 

[Firefox1701]

Once again, thanks to all for your contributions, in particular to SIW2 for his patience.


So I've attempted the process. As far as I can tell, the original C drive seems to have been successfully imaged to my portable hard drive. I've used USB7Ice to extract the Windows 7 64-bit installation software from the .iso file to a dedicated USB stick with nothing else on it. I've shut the computer down, removed the allegedly failing D drive, and plugged in the new virgin Samsung 860 Evo SSD. I've left the original C drive in place ( which is how I'm able to post this ), plugged in the USB stick with the installation software on it, and restarted the computer, still booting from the original C drive at this stage. A popup tells me that the drivers for the new SSD have been successfully located and installed. So far so good. However:


Although, when I press F8 on startup, the Samsung 860 Evo is shown on the list, when I boot up and check 'My Computer', the new drive is not shown ( as a matter of interest, both the USB stick with the installation software on it, and the external portable hard drive with the image on it, are shown ).


Whatever the reason for that, when I then attempt to actually restore the image to the new SSD, I get as far as the System Recovery Options window and 'Microsoft Windows 7' does not appear ( nothing does ). As per instructions, I ignore this and press 'next' anyway. However, when I get as far as the next System Recovery Options window with the five options ( Startup Repair, System Restore etc. ) and click on System Image Recovery, I get a message saying 'The system cannot find the file specified' and an error message 0x080070002 ... and that's it; that's as far as I can get.

Sitting here with an open computer and an assortment of screwdrivers. Any help very gratefully appreciated; I've previously suggested the 'explain it to me like I'm a six-year-old' principle ... maybe make that 'explain it to me like I'm a four-year-old'.

 

[SIW2]

Hard to follow your post.

Did you have 2 internal disks to start with?

Were they both regular mechanical hard disks?

You made an image of one disk to an external storage of some kind? What is that external storage?

You removed the second internal disk from the pc?


If there are disks that cannot be seen from within windows or from within boot media, it is likely there are drivers tha need to be added to windows and or/boot media.

Might be drivers for the disk itself or for the connection e.g. usb3 drivers

 

[Firefox1701]

Yes: 2 internal mechanical hard drives to begin with, one of which was the C drive ( 1 TB HDD ) and the other the D drive ( 500GB HDD ), which was the one that was failing and which started off this whole sorry story.


Yes, I made an image of the original C drive ( as above ) to an external Western Digital Elements 2TB HDD, which Windows recognises in My Computer without any problems.


Yes, when I'd shut the computer down, I removed the D drive ( which was the one for which the 'failing' warning had originally flashed up ) and plugged in the new Samsung 860 EVO SSD. Started up the computer, which then told me it was locating and installing the drivers for the Samsung, and after a couple of minutes told me that the drivers were successfully installed.


Following your instructions, I'd used USB7Ice to extract the 64-bit Windows 7 Installation Media to an otherwise unoccupied USB stick which I've used countless times before for data storage, without any difficulty. With the original C drive, the USB stick, the external hard drive with the image on it, and the new SSD drive plugged in, I re-started the computer. At the initial prompt I pressed F8 to select the boot media. The new Samsung SSD came up on this list. I chose the original C drive to boot from, in order to be able to access My Computer and see whether it was recognising everything. It recognised everything except the new SSD. Since the new SSD had appeared in the boot list options, I didn't know whether or not this mattered at this stage; so, still following your instructions, I went to my printed-out copy of 'How to Boot to the System Recovery Options in Windows 7'.


Following those instructions, I got as far as the System Recovery Options window and 'Microsoft Windows 7' does not appear ( nothing does ). As per the instructions ( 'If Windows 7 is not listed here, or it is blank, then it is ok. Click on Next anyway' ) I clicked on 'next' anyway. At this stage I get a message saying 'The system cannot find the file specified' and an error message 0x080070002, but it allows me to ignore this and move on to the next window, which is still the System Recovery Window, but the one with the five options ( Startup Repair, System Restore, System Image Recovery, Windows Memory Diagnostic, Command Prompt ). I click on System Image Recovery and get the exact same message ( i.e. 'The system cannot find the file specified' and an error message 0x080070002 ). It won't let me do anything after that point.


If in fact there are drivers needing to be added, I don't know which ones, where to find them or why they're needed. The only things that are new are the external hard drive, which I've had no problems with since I bought it, and which Windows recognises without any difficulty; and the new Samsung EVO 860 SSD, which the boot menu recognises but Windows 7 does not ( or at least not that shows up within 'My Computer' ), despite the fact that when I first installed it, the computer told me it was searching for, and had found and installed, the drivers for that SSD.


I hope that clarifies, and I apologise if any of this seems like I'm teaching you to suck eggs; that's certainly not the intention, I'm just trying to give all the necessary information.

 

[SIW2]

I chose the original C drive to boot from, in order to be able to access My Computer and see whether it was recognising everything. It recognised everything except the new SSD.

Firest you need to check in windows disk management and see if the new disk is initialized, partitioned and has a letter allocated.

Next

If the external disk is connected via usb3, win7 does not come with usb3 drivers as standard.

Use dism++ to export any relevant 3rd party drivers into a folder.

Then mount boot.wim from the installation media and add the drivers.

Then save the mounted image and finally unmount.

View attachment Dism++10.1.1000.100.zip

 

[Firefox1701]

Firest you need to check in windows disk management and see if the new disk is initialized, partitioned and has a letter allocated.

Had no clue how to do that, but Google was my friend, so I think I've conquered that one now; the new SSD is showing up in My Computer, although that in itself hasn't solved the problem.

If the external disk is connected via usb3, win7 does not come with usb3 drivers as standard.

From memory, when my son built this machine for me ten years ago, two of the USB ports are USB3 and the other two are USB2. I think. Don't ask me why; even he can't remember now. Up to this point, it's made very little difference ( USB3 is reputedly faster, although I've never noticed any perceptible difference regardless of which port I use; but still ). Having used all of the ports without incident over the course of the last ten years, until now, the question of drivers had never arisen. The problem now is that I'm not 100% sure which ports are which; if by nothing more than the law of averages, I'd say there's a reasonably good chance that the USB stick containing the installation media is plugged into a USB3 port. Equally, I'm reasonably sure that the external hard drive containing the image of my original C drive is plugged into a USB2 port.


So, irrespective of why it's never reared it's head until now, if the answer is as simple ( I use the word 'simple' very much in a relative sense ) as downloading USB3 drivers, so be it. However:

Use dism++ to export any relevant 3rd party drivers into a folder.

... this is where it all grinds to a halt.
I downloaded and saved Dism++10.1.1000.100. Since this appeared to be a zip file, I extracted it to a folder within the Downloads folder on my original C drive ( which is what I'm still currently working from in order to have access to the internet ).

Then mount boot.wim from the installation media and add the drivers.

As they say where I come from, I haven't a scooby. I have no clue how to 'mount' boot.wim, which I gather I'll find somewhere within the installation media files that are now stored on the USB memory stick. I'm assuming 'mount' doesn't mean 'open', or you'd have said 'open'; just in case, on the offchance, I tried opening it, and Windows 'can't open this file'. Even if I'd managed to 'mount' boot.wim, I wouldn't know how to add the drivers, or indeed which files those would be ( all the extracted files from the Dism++10.1.1000.100 zip file? - pure guesswork here ).

Then save the mounted image and finally unmount.

Inasmuch as I've no idea how to get to the point of having a 'mounted image', I wouldn't know how to save it or unmount it.

Attachment 411225
Attachment 411224

... I'm sure these are extremely useful if you have some idea what they are and what to do with them.

Nothing I've managed to do so far gets me to the window illustrated in Attachment 411224, but if that does happen at some point, do I just click 'export' for everything that's ticked?



Obviously, trial and error would be one way to go: simply repeat the original restoration process using every combination of USB ports for the installation media / external hard drive until, hopefully, they both end up being plugged into USB2 ports - assuming I'm right in the first place and two of the ports are in fact USB2. On the one hand, I can't believe that's actually going to be the correct way to go; on the other hand, I'm starting to feel like I'm trying to read the schematics of the Starship Enterprise in order to figure out how to turn on a light-switch.


Honestly, when this all started out, I thought I at least had some idea what I was doing. If nothing else, I guess that's a lesson learned. You remember I modified 'explain it to me like I'm a six-year-old' to read 'four-year-old'? Maybe I should make that either 'three-year-old' or 'alien', or possibly at a push 'alien with learning difficulties and poor language skills'.

 

[Firefox1701]

Right: to wrap this thread up, firstly my thanks to everyone who's offered their assistance, and not least to SIW2 for his patience ( which I fear I may have exhausted! ). Ultimately, since I clearly don't have the language skills to understand the whole 'mount boot.wim' process, I resorted to trial and error, which seemed the only alternative; eventually I found the two USB2 ports and the rest was fairly plain sailing. I do still have a couple of other problems, which I've posted separately, rather than drag this thread on indefinitely; but again, thank you all for your help.