Windows 8 is a one way street for consumer PC users

[mjf]

I like the current desktop experience with the likes of Windows 7. Far be it from me to understand MS's strategy but they may be gambling on a generational change for the type of interface users like. If you look at younger people who have to sit down for 5 seconds they pull out their gadget and flip like crazy.
On a laptop or tablet they may love windows 8. On a desktop they may be happy with a touchscreen but I think decent sized touch pads (like Logitech's) will end up being shipped with desktops.

I think a tutorial for intelligent troglodytes on how to retrofit Windows 8 to a Windows 7 functionality would have wide readership. It's probably a case of describing the various tools already out there???

 

[whs]

Beside we do as much here for MS as their own forums do, if not more.

I agree, there is much greater support on this forum, also the forum doesn't aim to sell any products or promote a particular product; Microsoft forums may be clouded by the aim to make a profit.

I am a member on the MS forum. But I visit very rarely because there is hardly any traffic. Nothing compared to this forum here.

However, I don't think that they are peddling MS products in any particular fashion. It is a forum like many others - with relatively low attendance.

 

[whs]

a tutorial for intelligent troglodytes

 

[spencer1]

I'm just glad I bought my new PC (after 8 years!) back in May. I like Windows 7.

 

[mlevy]

I don't read any hatred toward MS in the WIn8 comments, more a genuine concern that they're abandoning too fast a wildly popular 3 year old OS.

Beside we do as much here for MS as their own forums do, if not more.

From the article linked at the beginning:

That could be a bigger problem that it used to be. All vendors Windows 8 PC now come with Microsoft's UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) Secure Boot. This "security" system makes it much harder to boot Linux, or any other operating system for that matter, on a Windows 8 PC.

I haven't heard yet that UEFI can lock out anything. Here's how it works with 7:
UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) - Install Windows 7 with - Windows 7 Forums

UEFI is routinely turned off if undesired by enabling Legacy BIOS, removing EFI boot disk from BIOS Boot order, then wiping the HD with Diskpart Clean Command or Convert GPT Disk to MBR Disk - Windows 7 Forums

Venture out of the sandbox of this forum and you find a Wikipedia article on UEFI that details what Secure Boot is. In that description they detail that a key can be loaded into UEFI that will prevent an OS not signed by that key from loading.

Secure boot
The UEFI 2.2 specification adds a protocol known as Secure boot, which can secure the boot process by preventing the loading of drivers or OS loaders that are not signed with an acceptable digital signature. When secure boot is enabled, it is initially placed in "Setup" mode, which allows a public key known as the "Platform key" (PK) to be written to the firmware. Once the key is written, secure boot enters "User" mode, where only drivers and loaders signed with the platform key can be loaded by the firmware. Additional "Key Exchange Keys" (KEK) can be added to a database stored in memory to allow other certificates to be used, but they must still have a connection to the private portion of the Platform key.[23] Secure boot can also be placed in "Custom" mode, where additional public keys can be added to the system that do not match the private key.[24]

Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, this can be circumvented by "rolling your own" PC (covers the part about using the legacy BIOS) but you can bet that OEMs will (possibly by requirement for certification by MS) lock the Secure Boot keys to prevent people from installing a different OS. Give it a year and you won't be able to get/run a laptop without Windows 8 unless you get a Chromebook or a MacBook. Also, it's only a matter of time before the legacy BIOS on an off-the-shelf system board is a thing of the past.

Your comment is great for a roll-your-own type of person, but for a regular Joe buying a desktop off the shelf with Win 8, finding he doesn't like it and wants to use Win 7, HE CAN'T, he's stuck with 8 because of the UEFI lock.

 

[bigcitycat]

Or you can make sure you buy a pc with the option to turn UEFI off. Like most will have. Like my Samsung laptop for example. It came with win 7 but also has UEFI.

 

[logicearth]

Yes, this can be circumvented by "rolling your own" PC (covers the part about using the legacy BIOS) but you can bet that OEMs will (possibly by requirement for certification by MS) lock the Secure Boot keys to prevent people from installing a different OS.

The requirement that Microsoft wants, is that SecureBoot be enabled by default. They made no requirement for it to be locked down to the end-user. If an OEM locks it, they do so at their own discretion, it has nothing to do with Microsoft or its certification. There is no requirement in Windows Certification that states SecureBoot cannot be a user setting. (Unless you count ARM Tablets, but those are specialized devices anyways, No one complains they cannot install there own OS on the iPad.)

The whole SecureBoot nonsense, is just FUD.

And it just so happens, those of major Linux distributions like Ubuntu, Red Hat have already solved and implemented the use of UEFI SecureBoot. Making it a non-issue!

Canonical (responsible for Ubuntu) will also maintain its own private key to sign installations of Ubuntu pre-loaded on certified OEM computers that run the operating system, and also plans to enforce a secure boot requirement as well...

Again SecureBoot is a none issue!

 

[gregrocker]

Would like to see real world examples of UEFI locks. I don't spend much time at EightForums but they would surely have seen examples of them by now.

We were warned about locked BIOS repeatedly in the early days of Win7 but I never found one. Besides courts have repeatedly ruled that an OEM cannot regulate what you want installed on your property, nor can they penalize you by revoking hardware warranty.

 

[bigcitycat]

Will never own a Win 8 pc and if they dont fix it will never own another windows pc. I would buy another win 7 pc if I had too.

 

[Brink]

HP clarifies Windows 8 consumer PC downgrade and warranties

HP isn't supporting consumer PCs downgrades from Windows 8 to Windows 7. However, the company has clarified that, if you do change operating systems anyway, your consumer Windows 8 PCs will still be under warranty .

It's been a confusing few days in HP laptop and desktop land. For a brief time, it appeared that HP would support Windows 8 consumer PCs downgrading to Windows 7. Microsoft would not have been amused! Microsoft's official licensing policy restricts Windows 8 downgrades to Windows 8 Pro users.

After I spoke several times with HP, we now know what's what with HP's Windows 8 consumer PCs. HP told me, "HP has updated this post, providing additional information that should clarify this topic for HP customers" and the official HP Windows 8 to Windows 7 downgrade answer is:

Read more at source:
HP clarifies Windows 8 consumer PC downgrade and warranties | ZDNet

 

[whs]

Well, HP is already on the blink - I guess they will blink a bit more. Next year's PC sales will teach them.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

From the latest Z-net article: "In addition, HP still won't guarantee that they'll have Windows 7 drivers for its Windows 8 retail/consumer PCs."

This is so typical of HP. Don't hold your breath waiting on them to come up with the needed drivers.

 

[mjf]

If you are a tiny bit technical ----Build your own PC.
I doubt that the motherboard or BIOS vendors will succumb to MS pressure. Let's hope that Intel and AMD are sensible.
Then run what you want on it and the components can be of a higher quality and lower cost.

 

[mjf]

I think a tutorial for intelligent troglodytes on how to retrofit Windows 8 to a Windows 7 functionality would have wide readership. It's probably a case of describing the various tools already out there???

I'm quite serious about this actually. We could all go our separate ways and repeat the same exercise or pool resources.

 

[gregrocker]

I'll pull it together if no one else does since I was able to get a perfect replica Win7 start menu, make the Button Wall with all crApps disappear, have replica gadgets, etc., all perfectly stable, before deciding I might as well use Win7.

After two days back I can't honestly say that Win8 was that much faster when Metro is not loaded into RAM as suggested, but it felt like it at the time.

Tonight we solved the first case of the new Win8 PC with MS Secure BIOS lock causing cant install windows 7 in the preinstalled windows 8 laptop - Windows 7 Forums. It involved bypassing the EFI BIOS which has been vexing installs and repairs for months now.

 

[bobafetthotmail]

+1 for the tutorial idea. I'm likely going to use it a lot in the next years.

 

[Golden]

I'll pull it together if no one else does since I was able to get a perfect replica Win7 start menu, make the Button Wall with all crApps disappear, have replica gadgets, etc., all perfectly stable, before deciding I might as well use Win7.

I definately think this tutorial has your name on it Greg - go for it.

 

[mjf]

I'll pull it together if no one else does since I was able to get a perfect replica Win7 start menu, make the Button Wall with all crApps disappear, have replica gadgets, etc., all perfectly stable, before deciding I might as well use Win7.

Let us lazy sods hold him to it.
Seriously it would be of assistance to many.

I wonder why MS didn't design a Win 7 theme option for serious desktop users and provide the Win 8 interface for particular multimedia users (2 in one).

 

[gregrocker]

They had to know this if they were even looking at the telemetry from the millions of preview users adding back the Start Menu. They had other priorities based on over-reaction to Ipad, wanting a low-priced locked-down touchscreen OS that sold lots of apps from the MS Store.

Failure to listen to previewers about how this ruins a productive desktop experience like Win7's is a disastrous miscalculation which will hopefully be corrected soon by the market - by at least giving upgrade rights to Win7 on new PC's which are now all being sold with Win8.

Then we should get Win7 SP2 with some Win8 explorer improvements. They did this when Vista was a disastrous resource hog initially. Win7 developments were rushed into SP1 to save Vista and to this day most don't even remember how bad it was.

 

[jumanji]

Thanks Greg, for your bypass surgery, but I will never need it. (Only if I pass, I need a bypass )

Windows 8 is not a one-way street but a no-entry street for me.