More Than 3 Out of 4 Enthusiasts Reject Windows 8

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What people here seem to be making an error on is that they seem to want a "newer W7" -- well for all sorts of reasons it can't reasonably be done --hence the need to design new OS'es. - By the logic expressed on this Forum by some people we'd sill be using XP (assuming we ever got beyond Windows 98 in the first place).

Putting aside small changes like the removal of the "classic" Start Menu and addition of security features like UAC, fundamentally there's nothing different between Windows XP and 7 in their design besides improvements to better support newer hardware (ie: SATA HDDs, and SSDs) and newer BIOS/UEFI software, and improvements to increase general performance.

A "newer Windows 7", which we would indeed love to have, would consist of kernel improvements we've seen in Windows 8 (faster boot tiemz!!!111!11one11!eleven) while keeping the desktop environment of Windows 7 and improving on it even further with improved support for newer hardware/software such as native USB3 support. It's all very reasonable to do and most end-users would prefer that over Windows 8/Metro/RT on desktops and laptops, it's just MS decided to be unreasonable and make us go their way or the highway; personally, I'm taking the highway on this one.

Hi there

Oh Dear -- there's a HUGE difference in XP and W7. For starters W7 has the ability to run (decently) 64 bit hardware although most of it is actually done via WOW (Windows on Windows).

XP did have a 64 bit version but trying to design proper 64 bit drivers and a decent security system was just not on -- as is the standard version of XP -- too many glaring holes in the security system meant that without a radical re-write of the OS XP was never going to survive frequent attacks in the new era.

If you are doing ANY sort of engineering there comes a point whether you can keep plugging leaks / applying patches to essentially an old design or whether you should start again from scratch and design the system taking into account advances in hardware / technology etc.

Even the I/O subsystem of XP had reached its limit -- it doesn't support USB3 or even SATA natively (if you try and install XP on a computer with no IDE drives you'll get the message "No Hard disks found". You have to slipstream the SATA drivers into the install process to make it work). Similarly trying to hive off really fast powerful GPU's away from the standard CPU functions also requires considerable jiggling with the OS to make the multi-tasking work successfully. Some of the modern graphics cards would just blow away the stuff that was around during the (original) lifetime of XP.

Windows 7 whilst a lot newer also has design limitations -- OK for a lot of people who are satisfied with their present hardware -- but the same considerations apply which is why Ms decided to go for an OS that can work in a modular capacity over all sorts of devices.

Another area that requires a whole slew of OS changes is to hive off the WOW (Windows on Windows) element in the OS which effectively means you are running a lot of applications in 32 bit rather than 64 bit mode. W8 is starting to reduce the reliance on WOW - and I would expect to see soon the dropping of the 32 bit OS completely with another kernel method used to run legacy 32 bit applications. This type of stuff requires a total kernel re-design and re-write so any W7 users hoping fr an "Improved" W7 unfortunately are going to be sadly disappointed.

OK some like W8 some don't --however as I've previously said NO ONE HAS to use it - but actually those that DO use it find it's nothing like as bad as the original complaints seemed to make it.

(If you were a Car manufacturer for example would you keep trying to jury rig an old model or would you decide at some point - we can't really upgrade this model any more -- we really DO have to design a new one that incorporates all the latest technological advances).

Cheers
jimbo
 

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Changeroo

Change for the sake of change totally sucks.
 

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Why couldn't they have made a desktop and a tablet version? Apple and Google manged to, why can't Microsoft?

People use phones and tablets, in addition to, laptops and desktops. they're not used on their own. I don't know anyone who just has a tablet or a phone.
 

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Why couldn't they have made a desktop and a tablet version? Apple and Google manged to, why can't Microsoft?

They can but M$ are desperate to push folks towards the subscription cloud model and paid for downloaded apps. They've seen how much money the fruit company makes from apps and want a slice of the action. But in doing so they've managed to alienate many existing desktop/laptop users.

M$ no longer have 90% plus of the computing market. Now that figure may apply if you only look at the desktop/laptop market but once you add in tablets (exclude smartphones) then who knows where their market share is.

It was and still is all about choice at install time as has been posted goodness knows how many times. But what would I know as I'm not inside the Redmond bubble!!!
 

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(If you were a Car manufacturer for example would you keep trying to jury rig an old model or would you decide at some point - we can't really upgrade this model any more -- we really DO have to design a new one that incorporates all the latest technological advances).

Cheers
jimbo

That simple little tablet/phone interface is more dumbed down than "technologically advanced".

The inference that "we can't really upgrade this model any more" is total baloney.
 

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Oh Dear -- there's a HUGE difference in XP and W7. For starters W7 has the ability to run (decently) 64 bit hardware although most of it is actually done via WOW (Windows on Windows).

XP did have a 64 bit version but trying to design proper 64 bit drivers and a decent security system was just not on -- as is the standard version of XP -- too many glaring holes in the security system meant that without a radical re-write of the OS XP was never going to survive frequent attacks in the new era.

The reason XP 64-bit (not the Itanium one!) never took off wasn't because it was 64-bit, nor was it because the OS was insecure, nor was it because the kernel needed a "radical rewrite". No, the real reasons were that XP 64-bit had absolutely no tangible market share and WHQL requirements did not include a line stating WHQL drivers needed to come in both 32- and 64-bit versions. Consequently hardware vendors did not have any incentive at all to develop any 64-bit drivers. 64-bit drivers (and 64-bit Windows) didn't become mainstream until WHQL made 64-bit drivers mandatory for certification and hardware had evolved to a point where 64-bit Windows was necessary to utilize them.

I'll also point out that NT6.X (which Vista (6.0), 7 (6.1), and even 8 (6.2) are running on) descends more closely from NT5.2 (XP 64-bit and Server 2003) than NT5.1 (XP 32-bit). While you might argue that the changes involved between NT5.2->NT6.0 would be "radical" given a whole version number increase, I'd like to say any truly "radical" changes would've more than likely resulted in something far more different and out there than Windows Vista; Windows Vista and 7 are still fundamentally the same OS as XP is when you look past the differences in hardware support and Aero/XP/Classic Explorer themes and consider what the OSes are designed to accomplish.

It's also ironic that the version difference between Windows 7 and Windows 8, NT6.1 and NT6.2 respectively, is minor and would suggest minimal large-scale changes, but in truth Windows 8 is radically different from Windows 7 in design and intention. Advances in kernels don't neccesarily indicate how big of a change a given revision of Windows is, as it turns out.

If you are doing ANY sort of engineering there comes a point whether you can keep plugging leaks / applying patches to essentially an old design or whether you should start again from scratch and design the system taking into account advances in hardware / technology etc.
Changing just for the sake of changing is pointless, if not even detrimental, and a waste of time. Look at Itanium, it was designed and created solely to replace x86 because x86 allegedly suffers the exact same problem Win32 allegedly has: Development rot. Now note where Itanium and x86 are respectively. Just because something has been developed and maintained for long periods of time doesn't necessarily mean it should be thrown out the window and new work started anew.

In addition, if that replacement, which in this case is WinRT, also serves solely to empower MS at the expense of the end-users, and if the thing WinRT is replacing (Win32) also has no practical problems, I will gladly vote with my wallet and go take the highway.

Besides, if Win32 really is suffering from such a severe case of development rot that further development is being hampered, the API would've died years ago as talks of trying to kill Win32 are nothing new. As it stands, Win32, like x86, only looks to be chugging on with nigh infinite steam unless MS just forcibly kills it right here.

Even the I/O subsystem of XP had reached its limit -- it doesn't support USB3 or even SATA natively (if you try and install XP on a computer with no IDE drives you'll get the message "No Hard disks found". You have to slipstream the SATA drivers into the install process to make it work). Similarly trying to hive off really fast powerful GPU's away from the standard CPU functions also requires considerable jiggling with the OS to make the multi-tasking work successfully. Some of the modern graphics cards would just blow away the stuff that was around during the (original) lifetime of XP.

Windows 7 whilst a lot newer also has design limitations -- OK for a lot of people who are satisfied with their present hardware -- but the same considerations apply which is why Ms decided to go for an OS that can work in a modular capacity over all sorts of devices.
I will throw this right back at you and point out that Windows 7 (and Vista for that matter) introduced native support for SATA, among other notable improvements in the kernel and other OS subsystems themselves, while clearly keeping the desktop interface and Win32 API that have worked absolutely magnificently over the years without any problems.

Those of us who care about desktops refuse Windows 8, regardless of the system improvements, because we know it doesn't take destroying an already established OS to bring those improvements into production. There is absolutely no requirement for Metro/WinRT to be present, nor for Desktop to be eventually killed off, for any of Windows 8's improvements that are not Metro-specific to work.

Another area that requires a whole slew of OS changes is to hive off the WOW (Windows on Windows) element in the OS which effectively means you are running a lot of applications in 32 bit rather than 64 bit mode. W8 is starting to reduce the reliance on WOW - and I would expect to see soon the dropping of the 32 bit OS completely with another kernel method used to run legacy 32 bit applications. This type of stuff requires a total kernel re-design and re-write so any W7 users hoping fr an "Improved" W7 unfortunately are going to be sadly disappointed.
WoW64 is a subsystem that keeps 32-bit equivalents of Windows's 64-bit DLLs and other crucial data (including registry keys), which then redirects any 32-bit software running to WoW64's store of 32-bit data instead of Windows's native 64-bit data. While there is certainly overhead involved, ranging from storing an entire copy of 32-bit data to redirecting 32-bit software from 64-bit to 32-bit, the subsystem in theory looks to be designed well and works relatively flawlessly.

The WoW64 subsystem also caters to the reality that moving 32-bit software to 64-bit isn't compulsory or even necessary, with many 32-bit software likely not seeing any tangible benefits from moving to 64-bit. Many audio/video filters and their media players by association remain 32-bit, many games also remain 32-bit with some starting to have options for 64-bit execution, and even some of Windows's own core programs like IE run in 32-bit with an option to run a 64-bit version.

Meanwhile, any 64-bit software executes natively on 64-bit versions of Windows.

OK some like W8 some don't --however as I've previously said NO ONE HAS to use it - but actually those that DO use it find it's nothing like as bad as the original complaints seemed to make it.
I'm an advocate for freedom of speech and freedom of choice. If some people find Windows 8 adequate to their needs, great! Do they want to praise it? Go right ahead! If some people find Windows 8 terrible for their needs, well that sucks. Do they want to voice their dissatisfaction? Go for it, they have the right!

Personally, as someone who finds Windows 8 inadequate for my needs, and in certain areas of its operation downright conflicting with what I believe in, I am voicing my dissatisfaction with Windows 8. I am also voicing my dissatisfaction with MS's holier-than-thou attitude, which has been very clear given their unenthusiastic handling of Windows 7 support and just generally not paying heed to a customer's legitimate needs.

(If you were a Car manufacturer for example would you keep trying to jury rig an old model or would you decide at some point - we can't really upgrade this model any more -- we really DO have to design a new one that incorporates all the latest technological advances).
As a (sane) car manufacturer, I would strive to make the 2014 model Prius at least resemble that of 2013 and prior releases of the Prius instead of turning it into a Camry. As a customer, if I want to upgrade from a 2013 model Prius to a 2014 model, I would expect the latter to build on the former; if I wanted a Camry I'll grab a Camry, not a Prius.

Perhaps, if Windows 8 was not released under the "Windows" moniker but rather something completely new and separate, it might have achieved at least some better levels of acceptance because it wouldn't need to have tried to live up to the Windows name that Windows 95~7 had established.

And now I finish this post with the realization I just created another wall of text that is TL;DR. :picnic:
 

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Who drives innovation and technology? Enthusiasts or consumers?

Hi BR,
With respect it is neither.
It is profit.
First last and allways.
Rgds
 

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Even the I/O subsystem of XP had reached its limit -- it doesn't support USB3 or even SATA natively (if you try and install XP on a computer with no IDE drives you'll get the message "No Hard disks found". You have to slipstream the SATA drivers into the install process to make it work).


Cheers
jimbo

True, slipstreaming updates work but when the last of my western digitals died, I found myself running all SATA and even without the drivers [this workstation] and the HTPC [with a shrunken down XP to 200MB via nLite] the system bios in both defaulted to IDE mode.....meaning two controllers were master and two became slave. I had no trouble installing 2000, then XP on either machine.




Not my system but it just takes a little work, I had the updated kernel working when I had 2000 but it conflicted with my capture card, so it was easier to slap on the Corporate/Student version with SP3 on it.
I still do not have SATA drivers on this P4, and 2000 still booted in about half the time with a SSD [no support,eh?], too late did I realise that the TV card malfunction was that it was already a running system, the application needed to be un-installed, then re-installed with just a re-load of the configuration files. It turned out that the application [control panel for the card and PVR] needed the XP dll rather than the 2000 dll eventhough both are NT5.x .

Though with the success of others I may return to 2000 Pro for the sake of my legacy gear.
Windows NT4 / 2000 / 2003 - MSFN Forum
Any hope of getting Windows 2000 running on my PC? - MSFN Forum - Page 2
 
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Who drives innovation and technology? Enthusiasts or consumers?

Hi BR,
With respect it is neither.
It is profit.
First last and allways.
Rgds
I agree to a large extent. I think we move ahead because some people like change for the sake of change - isn't that what science and mathematics is about?
 

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While profit does play a large role, I like to think that innovation and technology ultimately depend on whether we truly want it or not. Take the Apollo Space Program: It were so expensive that the NASA budget could've bought several entire countries, and the financial and technological net profits in the end would've been uncertain given the sheer cost, but we went ahead and did it anyway because we just wanted a man on the Moon! All the goodies that came with it, like advances in computer technology, navigation systems, solar and fuel cells, and rocketry, were mere side-effects to the simple goal of just taking a stroll on the Moon.
 

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:what:Crap...my slow typing allowed two posts to jump in. (go back to page 71).:doh:
 

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:what:Crap...my slow typing allowed two posts to jump in. (go back to page 71).:doh:

:roflmao:

Boy..... have I had THAT happen to me before!

Well, I have a nice little library of Operating Systems now.....all free. If I separate the second capture card from this workstation, then I can go in any direction and use the XP Lite for Home Theatre PCs because they don't have to be on the WWW and still add a HDHomerun to one and have four tuners in the house.
In the coming two years, build backups for those, then it's just a matter of slapping the drives in and go.
They may have an intranet but not need the outside world, manual install of TV listings only takes two minutes and if the clocks need adjustment, get it off the already connected cell phone[plus or minus 5 seconds]. I'd prefer windows because of the PortableApps suite, which can't be used on Linux. I already use open source apps, since 2001.
Maybe learn Myth-TV. 2020 is still a long way off.
 

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Hi there

Oh Dear -- there's a HUGE difference in XP and W7. For starters W7 has the ability to run (decently) 64 bit hardware although most of it is actually done via WOW (Windows on Windows).jimbo

Windows uses the Winsxs compatibility folder to run 32bit apps/drivers.
Come out in Vista.

XP did have a 64 bit version but trying to design proper 64 bit drivers and a decent security system was just not on -- as is the standard version of XP -- too many glaring holes in the security system meant that without a radical re-write of the OS XP was never going to survive frequent attacks in the new era.jimbo

Manufacturers of hardware didn't need 64bit OS for most drivers, so why would they rewrite a driver

If you are doing ANY sort of engineering there comes a point whether you can keep plugging leaks / applying patches to essentially an old design or whether you should start again from scratch and design the system taking into account advances in hardware / technology etc.jimbo

The best patch from M$ to stop remote control of someones Windows OS was called SMS.
Ever seen NetLab?

Even the I/O subsystem of XP had reached its limit -- it doesn't support USB3 or even SATA natively (if you try and install XP on a computer with no IDE drives you'll get the message "No Hard disks found". You have to slipstream the SATA drivers into the install process to make it work). Similarly trying to hive off really fast powerful GPU's away from the standard CPU functions also requires considerable jiggling with the OS to make the multi-tasking work successfully. Some of the modern graphics cards would just blow away the stuff that was around during the (original) lifetime of XP.jimbo

Usb wasn't on XP. didn't turn up till SP1

Windows 7 whilst a lot newer also has design limitations -- OK for a lot of people who are satisfied with their present hardware -- but the same considerations apply which is why Ms decided to go for an OS that can work in a modular capacity over all sorts of devices.jimbo

Yes on XP, they finally were able to stop and restart the network driver!!!
And the reboot PC fix is a M$ thing, not a computer thing.

Another area that requires a whole slew of OS changes is to hive off the WOW (Windows on Windows) element in the OS which effectively means you are running a lot of applications in 32 bit rather than 64 bit mode. W8 is starting to reduce the reliance on WOW - and I would expect to see soon the dropping of the 32 bit OS completely with another kernel method used to run legacy 32 bit applications. This type of stuff requires a total kernel re-design and re-write so any W7 users hoping fr an "Improved" W7 unfortunately are going to be sadly disappointed.jimbo

Winsxs again

OK some like W8 some don't --however as I've previously said NO ONE HAS to use it - but actually those that DO use it find it's nothing like as bad as the original complaints seemed to make it.

(If you were a Car manufacturer for example would you keep trying to jury rig an old model or would you decide at some point - we can't really upgrade this model any more -- we really DO have to design a new one that incorporates all the latest technological advances).

Cheers
jimbo

What major thing M$ change is the user interface to the OS, yes that right the "GUI"
Well NT to XP DotNet Commonly referred to as NotYet
 

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Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit
CPU
Intel i7-3930K
Motherboard
ASUS P9X79 WS
Memory
Kingston HyperX Genesis 32GB Kit (8x4GB Modules) 1600MHz DDR
Graphics Card(s)
MSI R7850 Twin Frozr 2GD5/OC Radeon HD 7850 2GB 256-bit GDDR
Sound Card
Asus Xonar Essence STX
Monitor(s) Displays
3x Asus VG248QE 24", Vizio 32" TV
Screen Resolution
1920 x 1080, ?
Hard Drives
Samsung 128GB 840 Pro SSD (1),
Samsung 4TB 850 EVO SSDs (4)
Samsung 4TB 850 EVO SSDs (16) external backup drives used in 2.5" hot swap bays in the computer.
PSU
Corsair HX750w
Case
Antec Two Hundred v2 (modified)
Cooling
Cooler Master GeminII S524 120mm (fan replaced with a 140mm)
Keyboard
Logitech G510s
Mouse
Logitech M525 (two in use)
Internet Speed
=< 32Mbps down, 8Mbps up
Antivirus
AVAST!, MBAM, SAS, Spybot S&D (all but MBAM free) Glary Util
Browser
IE11
Other Info
LSI 9211-8i HBA card (8 SATA III ports), 2.5" & 3.5" Hot Swap Bays, HooToo HT-CR001 PCI-E to USB 3.0 Internal Hub + 6 Slot Card Reader, and LG Model CH12LS28 BD-ROM Optical Drive. Also, ScanSnap S1500 ADF duplexing scanner, Canon 9000F flat bed scanner, Corsair SP2500 2.1 speakers, Samsung CLP 415nw laser color printer, Cyberpower PP2200SW UPS
I absolutely hate windows 8 it's only for Tablet PC's and not other pc's.

That's rubbish, I use both Win 7 and Win 8, and Win 8 works fine with a mouse. You don't need a touch screen. The desktop is still there. It plays all my games. Classic Start lets you ignore the Start Screen, and then you wouldn't know whether you were in 7 or 8.

8 is no better or worse than 7. Just different.

I'd be far more concerned about MS' push to the cloud and subscription-based software, than a new interface that any idiot should be able to learn. Or avoid/bypass.

Wenda.
 
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My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 32-bit; Windows 7 Home...Intel T6500 Core 2 Duo@2Ghz.3GB DDR2Intel 4500MHD
Computer type
Laptop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Acer AS5735
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 32-bit; Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (VM).
CPU
Intel T6500 Core 2 Duo@2Ghz.
Motherboard
Acer
Memory
3GB DDR2
Graphics Card(s)
Intel 4500MHD
Sound Card
Realtek onboard
Monitor(s) Displays
Built-in, no touch
Screen Resolution
1366x768
Hard Drives
250GB SATA in two equal partitions.
PSU
Stock
Case
Laptop
Cooling
Stock
Keyboard
Full 101-key
Mouse
USB cordless IR
Antivirus
MSE
Browser
IE9, Firefox.
Other Info
A top little machine that hasn't let me down once since the day I removed it from its packaging over four years ago. It's done everything I could want, and more, all without a single issue. 10/10, Acer!!
While profit does play a large role, I like to think that innovation and technology ultimately depend on whether we truly want it or not. Take the Apollo Space Program: It were so expensive that the NASA budget could've bought several entire countries, and the financial and technological net profits in the end would've been uncertain given the sheer cost, but we went ahead and did it anyway because we just wanted a man on the Moon! All the goodies that came with it, like advances in computer technology, navigation systems, solar and fuel cells, and rocketry, were mere side-effects to the simple goal of just taking a stroll on the Moon.

Hi KA,
While the goal itself could not be said to make money all of the myriad companies that designed and made the rocket parts did so to make money and judging from the huge budget you mention they must have made some quite enviable sums.
Rgds
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Win 7 Pro 64biti3 3220 ivy bridge8 GbOn Board
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
custom
OS
Win 7 Pro 64bit
CPU
i3 3220 ivy bridge
Motherboard
Gigabyte B75M D3H
Memory
8 Gb
Graphics Card(s)
On Board
Source 'borrowed' from EightForums regarding market share

Windows has fallen behind Apple iOS and Google Android | ZDNet

Hence the overreaction to Ipad, creating a bad imitation foisted on productive desktop users who were enjoying the best desktop experience available in Win7.

Ironic especially because the Live Tile improvements had they been focused on tablets and phones could have beaten Ipad's version in functionality. On a desktop they just boggle, like suddenly the best Desktop Experience ever has just been overwritten with Playskool.
 
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