How to clone bootable floppy to an HDD?

[dc2000]

Let me explain my dilemma. In the office we have an old computer that is currently running off a bootable floppy to run custom-made software. The problem is that the floppy disk is running on the last leg, so I decided to clone it to a hard drive. (Otherwise it'd be a very expensive repair if that floppy dies.)

The question is how?

So I did some research and found out that one can use WinImage to clone it. Which I did. But my issue is how to write it to a hard drive and make it bootable. For some reason when I try to do it in WinImage and then boot off of that hard drive I get this error:

Invalid System Disk
Replace the disk, and then press any key

I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, since Windows 7 probably doesn't even know what that old floppy is.

Here's the contents of the floppy that I'm trying to clone. I believe it runs off a DOS system:

So I'd appreciate any input on this? Maybe a different method to copy/clone that floppy to an HDD?

 

[z3r010]

It's been years since I messed with anything like that, but my first thoughts are try a bootable usb rather than hdd - https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/jj200124.aspx

 

[dc2000]

Thanks. I thought of that too. Unfortunately that PC box is so old that it doesn't have an option to boot from a USB. Can I make a bootable HDD instead of a USB?

 

[Wandering one]

I may be way out in left field here, but perhaps you could install the whole thing in a virtual machine then use a virtual floppy to boot ?
Art.

 

[strollin]

First thing you should do is make a duplicate copy of the floppy disk using the diskcopy command. That way, you'll be sure your floppy disk is backed up so if the original dies you can use the backup. In order to do that though, you're going to need a DOS boot disk. Are you able to exit from the program and get to a DOS prompt? At a DOS prompt, type ver and press Enter. This will tell you what version of DOS you need. Once you know what version of DOS you need, you can then go to this link: MS-DOS Boot Disk Download | AllBootDisks - Providing Free Boot Disk Downloads. MS-DOS to Windows XP. and download the boot disk that corresponds to the version of DOS you need. That disk will be able to boot and should have the diskcopy command on it that will let you make a backup copy of the disk.

A backup disk should keep you going short term until you figure out how to proceed further. One caveat though. Lots of times custom software has some kind of copy protection and, if that's the case, you won't be able to copy it or create any other way of booting it unless you can get around the copy protection.

Long term solution would be to create a bootable VM running the required DOS version, then copy the files from the floppy to the VM in order to boot and run the software in a VM.

 

[dc2000]

Thanks, strollin, for your detailed explanation. Unfortunately I cannot exit from the program. In a normal operation that PC doesn't even have a keyboard. (I managed to connect one, but the only thing it does, it beeps when I press keys.) Is there a way to force an app to close in DOS? Something like Task Manager? I'm assuming I need this to get the DOS version, correct?

As disk protection goes, I hope not. Because this company is long out of business. It's been sold and resold and the new owner wants us to buy it all (hardware and software, or in other words, $50K minimum.) So I don't know what I would do.... hope not!

As for the VM, I guess that would be one way, except that I will need to purchase a new Windows box to run that VM. That comes with its own caveat of being able to use hardware used by this custom software. It interfaces with the hardware using an old COM port, so I'm not sure how that would work on a new machine.

One thing I'm curious about, guys -- why is it so difficult to clone that floppy to a disk C?

 

[strollin]

If the program doesn't have a button or menu selection to exit itself then you might be out of luck. You could try booting the disk and try timing for the point where DOS has booted but the software program hasn't loaded yet. If you can hit Ctrl-Break at that time you should be able to interrupt the autoexec.bat and drop to a DOS prompt.

 

[pbcopter]

While I admit floppy's are not the norm these days they are available for very low prices.

I'm not sure what you mean by "(Otherwise it'd be a very expensive repair if that floppy dies.)"

Amazon.com: Bytecc BT-145 1.44 MB 3.5-inch Floppy Disk Drive, Black bezel: Computers & Accessories

BYTECC Model BT-145 Floppy Drive - Newegg.com

 

[strollin]

... I'm not sure what you mean by "(Otherwise it'd be a very expensive repair if that floppy dies.)" ...http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...lmC_yxRuvc2KYM7y4riJIaAi538P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

The floppy itself isn't the issue, it's the software on it that's important. If the one and only copy of the software is on that floppy and the floppy is lost, stolen, damaged or just plain fails, it may not be replaceable. It could also make it so data that can only be accessed via that software is lost as well since it may no longer be accessible.

 

[GEWB]

From the sounds of it, your software has a copy protection scheme - I've seen it numerous times in the early to mid 1990s. I'll wager that DISKCOPY will not work...you need a more modern utility to copies at a bit level - even then it may not work.

Protections schemes from back then ran the gamut of road blocks including uniques ID numbers read from the floppy and entered in the application, time stamps that get written, deliberate bad blocks written at a specific address (makes copying difficult), etc.

Your vendor is holding you hostage. You should consider a serious upgrade in software and hardware before the device goes down.

Best of luck.

Regards,
GEWB

 

[RolandJS]

Take the boot floppy to a professional computer place in your area, pay them to make another boot floppy.
They just might know how to solve your situation, and they may not: explain fully what you want and why you want it, and ask if either usb or dvd boot is possible to make from your boot floppy before paying.

 

[pbcopter]

... I'm not sure what you mean by "(Otherwise it'd be a very expensive repair if that floppy dies.)" ...http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...lmC_yxRuvc2KYM7y4riJIaAi538P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

The floppy itself isn't the issue, it's the software on it that's important. If the one and only copy of the software is on that floppy and the floppy is lost, stolen, damaged or just plain fails, it may not be replaceable. It could also make it so data that can only be accessed via that software is lost as well since it may no longer be accessible.

He said he was able to clone it. I don't understand why he can't duplicate the floppy if that is true.

 

[dc2000]

Yes, guys, I can clone it to another floppy using WinImage. What I need to know is how to clone it to a hard drive?

 

[kkehoe]

First off, what's on the hard drive at the moment? If there's anything on it, what I'm about to suggest might do more harm than good. I'm assuming you're somewhat familiar with working at a command prompt.

The contents of your floppy look like they're from the Win ME era with minimum required boot files and your application files. For the sake of this discussion we will assume your application requires a Win ME environment.

The first step is to make the hard drive bootable. Again, assuming your existing disk is a Win ME boot environment, you need a full Win ME boot disk. You can get that here:

Bootdisk.Com - Free Windows Bootdisks, Free DOS boot disk

After making the boot floppy, use it to start the computer you're working on. You'll end up at an A:\> prompt, preceded by a message that gives you the drive letter where the diagnostic tools were loaded - make a note of that drive letter.

The next step is to SYS the hard drive or, in other words, copy the files that will make it bootable. That is done with the SYS command as described here:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/66530

I know the article specifies it as a DOS command but it is available on the boot disk. You'll have to navigate to the previously noted diagnostic tools drive letter to find the SYS command.

So, if the boot disk is able to see your hard drive and the SYS command executes without error, your computer should be bootable from the hard drive, leaving you at a C:\> prompt.

The next step is to copy your application files from your floppy to the hard drive - just do a straight file copy, no cloning or other processes. Do not overwrite any system files that are already on the hard drive.

If you need your application to run automagically when you start the computer, add its start command to the AUTOEXEC.BAT file on the hard drive. Hopefully your application is not hard-coded to run on a floppy.

Kevin

 

[strollin]

Unless you wish to dedicate an entire hard drive to that single piece of software, you're better off using a VM.

Regardless, you need to determine what version of DOS is required, then format the hdd (physical or virtual) along with the system files in order to make it bootable using that version of DOS. Once you have a booting drive, then you should be able to copy the files from the floppy onto the drive.

 

[mjf]

I'd also think running DOS in a VM would be my initial approach. The batch file autoexec.bat should tell you what is being run at boot (maybe the wattest.exe program). You may be able to copy all the non Dos stuff from the floppy plus the relevant hard disk contents to a modern PC. Of course the old PC is going to fail one day so a longer term solution may be worth the effort.

I don't know how you do anything without a keyboard. Maybe explain a bit more about the application and how it runs.

 

[dc2000]

First off, really quick, let me answer this -- the reason this PC doesn't have a keyboard is because it has a special IR remote control.

Secondly, thank you, kkehoe, for your detailed instructions!

First off, what's on the hard drive at the moment?

Right now I have Windows XP on it. But I don't need it.

I'm assuming you're somewhat familiar with working at a command prompt.

Yes, in the most part.

The contents of your floppy look like they're from the Win ME era with minimum required boot files and your application files.

Yes, what I realized is that if I edit the original autoexec.bat and remove all stuff from it, the original floppy disk boots up into a command prompt. So when I did ver on it, it gives me this:

Windows Millennium [Version 4.90.3000]

On the side note, they must have hacked something in there. Because I can't imagine that they were able to put Windows on a 1.4MB floppy in those two dozen files that I showed. But, nonetheless, this is what original floppy gives me.

you need a full Win ME boot disk.

Thanks. Downloaded it from your link and burned it into a floppy. It boots up, so if I choose "Start w/o DVD support" it gives me command prompt and the same version as above. I'm still puzzled how it could be Windows, but, anyway...

Now the tricky part. when I tried running SYS C: like you suggested (with the target HDD plugged into computer as drive C: ) I get this error (see attached.) Moreover when I tried to do FORMAT C:/S it still refused to do it.

Then if I do SYS C: if I boot up from the original floppy, it gives me:

Incorrect DOS version

Any idea where to go from there? I can see that I'm really close!!!!

And thanks again for all your help!

 

[kkehoe]

The boot floppy is not really Windows ME with a GUI, but rather just a command line interpreter.

If XP is on the HDD then the partition might be NTFS, which ME will not recognize. Actually, if XP is bootable I would take a stab at running your application under XP. It might work!

Otherwise, perhaps you could wipe the partition off, recreate it, format it (without /s), then SYS it?

I'm kind of guessing here because this is a 16-year-old operating system that I didn't much work with back in the day because one tended to avoid it in the same way one avoided Vista/8 in recent years. Perhaps the SYS command functionality is a bit different in ME?

It was around about the 9x/ME/XP era that drive management became tricky because drives were increasing in size to where other hardware/software could not deal with them without special overlay software installed on the drive. If you boot without that overlay being loaded, you couldn't see the drive correctly.

This KB mentions your error as part of a different scenario:

https://support.microsoft.com/EN-US/kb/314057

Perhaps you could run Step 3, up to and including e, after doing the format. Of course you'd have to manually create the C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\EBD folder structure. In step d, the source of your IO.SYS file would be your floppy since the HDD is empty.

Failing all that, you could go back to bootdisk.com and get a DOS 6.22 bootdisk, make the HDD bootable, and see if your app will run under DOS 6.22.

Kevin

 

[strollin]

... Now the tricky part. when I tried running SYS C: like you suggested (with the target HDD plugged into computer as drive C: ) I get this error (see attached.) Moreover when I tried to do FORMAT C:/S it still refused to do it.

... Then if I do SYS C: if I boot up from the original floppy, it gives me:

Incorrect DOS version

Any idea where to go from there? I can see that I'm really close!!!!

And thanks again for all your help!

Assuming you have a full ME boot disk, try running fdisk and delete the existing XP partition, then create a new partition and see if you can format it with the format /s command.

 

[dc2000]

Assuming you have a full ME boot disk, try running fdisk and delete the existing XP partition, then create a new partition and see if you can format it with the format /s command.

Sorry for the delay. I'm back now... it took me a while to find Windows ME disk. I eventually happened to borrow it from an old friend. I then booted off of it and ran FDISK on it, then deleted the primary partition off the HDD (the one that was used by XP) and then formatted it.

Unfortunately I was not able to run FORMAT C: \S - it told me that \S parameter is not supported. So I just did FORMAT C: which erased everything.

At this point I'm lost. If I run WinME setup, it simply installs it on that disk C:. I didn't see any option to just make disk C: bootable.

Is there something else I need to do?

PS. Again, all I'm trying to do is clone a floppy to that HDD. There must be some software to do this???