Solved Advice Needed for UPS setup

[GokAy]

Hey,

I have 2 outlets in my living room (both are tied to the same 16A breaker).

Outlet #1:
- 40" LED TV - 100W(?)
- Logitech Z5500 speaker system - 505W RMS
- Cable modem/router - 20W (?) good enough?
- Philips Living Colors LED lamp - 15W
- PlayStation 3 slim (normally unplugged from power) - 200W
- Amiga 500 (normally unplugged from power) - 27.5W
Total: 867.5W

Outlet #2:
- PC - 1000W
- 3 x 23" LCD Monitor (120Hz) - 3 x 38.2W = say 150W max (?)
- Logitech G19 keyboard - couldn't find - 20W (?) good enough?
- External HDD Enclosure - 10-15W (?)
Total: 1185W

I had an old 2000VA (1200W) UPS - (Bross 1200DJ) which the batteries were dead, it has 4 12V 7Ah batteries. I replaced them and it is plugged in (empty) another room at the moment. Will use this for outlet #1.

I also bought another 2000VA (1200W) - (Powercom RPT 2000VA) which was suggested in a popular local forum. I was said it could power outlet #2. Considering PC won't draw 1000W, and monitors were calculated with 25% added wattage, I guess this would be enough. What do you think?

Considering both are 2000kVA (1200W), and Bross has 4xbatteries instead of Powercom's 2xbattery, does this mean Bross can power for longer? There should be some difference between the two, right?

In the manual of Powercom it writes that in order to reduce fire risk, according to International codes (ANSI/NFPA 70), that a 20A surge protector be used. Now, I believe this has been translated from Chinese or something Do they mean a breaker or some other device?

Considering I will use these both in the living room, same 16A breaker, would this cause issues? Do I have to not only change the breaker of living room to 20A but also separate the two? (I could drill a hole to the back room - a bed room I don't use - and plug it to the outlet in there, also changing the breaker to 20A.)

Also I need couple more plugs, would a power multiplier work if I balance the Wattage? (I doubt these have separate rails anyway).

Finally, I have read here in the forums that it would be good to have a surge protector between UPS and wall outlet. I couldn't locate the manual for Bross but Powercom should have surge protection. Is it still good to use separate surge protection before them?

Lots of questions, as I am very poor with these stuff

 

[ThrashZone]

You might ask an electrician Turkey has 230V plugs so it seems shared between 2 of them in that room
230V our 240V conversion is pretty powerful we would power an oven/ cloths dryer = large appliances off of it
You guys power small stuff with it

So at that amperage even though UPS's have their own gfi safety features it might be a good idea to add another sacrificial lamb to it

Most of our gfi breakers are 15A if lucky most would be 10A = 120V
20A would be a special request depending on what is connected to it and how long the string is.

 

[Barman58]

how about something like this ... 3 Way Surge Protected Fused Adaptor. Ideal for use with: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics similar should be available for Turkey

Edit

16A at 230V AC will power a total of over 3.5kW

The number of batteries used should not be a factor if both devices are rated the same 2000VA

 

[Ranger4]

"Considering both are 2000kVA (1200W), and Bross has 4xbatteries instead of Powercom's 2xbattery, does this mean Bross can power for longer? There should be some difference between the two, right?"

Not necessarily, it depends on the amp hour rating of the batteries. The usual 12 volt batteries that are used in UPS's come in a variety of amp hour ratings. So 2 batteries of a higher rating could equal 4 batteries of a lower rating.

Do not change the circuit breaker from a 16A to a 20A. Most household wiring is rated at 10 amps on 240 volt systems, which is 2400 watts. The 16A circuit breaker therefore has adequate capacity for normal operation but will break on a sudden short circuit of overload. Double outlets in the one wall socket still only use the one cable from the circuit breaker, so if you have 2 items drawing 10 amps each connected to on of these the wiring will be overloaded & this may well trip the circuit breaker.

10 amps at 240 volts = 2400 Watts
16 amps at 240 volts = 3840 Watts
20 amps at 240 volts = 4800 Watts.

 

[GokAy]

Thanks for commenting guys.

Here:
10A for lights only.
16A is a standard breaker for living rooms/bed rooms and the like.
20A for kitchen (refrigerator, dish washer, tea/coffee makers, electric stoves) and bathroom (usually washing machine here).
Then 25A for main breaker (shuts everything off in the house), then there are few more outside the apartment in the main building cabinet where power meters are.

Alright so 16A is enough for both UPSs. I will call and ask the importer for what they mean by 20A surge protection (they have not used the word we have for a breaker, so maybe something else).

I thought both had 12V 7Ah batteries, but checked the manual again, it's 4x7Ah vs 2x9Ah.

There are only 2 outlets in the room (different walls, both has 1 socket each).

Barman, thanks for the link, I already have surge protectors (with 4 and 6 sockets respectively). What I tried to ask was, if I plug the surge protector to the wall, and UPS to the surge protector would that cause any issues or is it a good idea?

Also, if I plug a regular multiplier (say, 3x) to one of the sockets of the UPS, would this cause any issues as long as I don't exceed wattage?

Thanks again, I have a bit better understanding now.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I'm not going into specifics because I'm no familiar with house (and some commercial) wiring systems other than in the U.S. but I will say that you should never increase the size of a breaker without knowing if the size of the wires on the circuit is large enough to handle the increased current, which it rarely is since larger wiring costs more and builders normally can't afford to increase the size of wiring if the increased capacity isn't going to be utilized. Here in the U.S., I've never seen a home with wiring rated for a higher amperage than it had breakers for but, then again, builders may be more generous in your neck of the world than they are in mine.

 

[ThrashZone]

Thanks for commenting guys.

What I tried to ask was, if I plug the surge protector to the wall, and UPS to the surge protector would that cause any issues or is it a good idea?

.

It's a redundancy but dealing with high voltage I wouldn't call it a bad thing
Surge protectors are cheaper than UPS's

 

[GokAy]

Hey Jeannie, thanks for the input. I believe the manual mislead me and caused all the confusion about the amperage. I will call tomorrow to learn what they mean, and will update you all.

I still need answer for the couple of questions:

I already have surge protectors (with 4 and 6 sockets respectively). What I tried to ask was, if I plug the surge protector to the wall, and UPS to the surge protector would that cause any issues or is it a good idea?

Also, if I plug a regular multiplier (say, 3x) to one of the sockets of the UPS, would this cause any issues as long as I don't exceed wattage?

Edit: Asking these because I remember (mind you years ago, so prone to error) that using a surge protector was not very good with a UPS, but perhaps that was UPS then surge protector, now we are talking surge protector then UPS.

 

[Ranger4]

I have my UPS plugged into a surge protector. So it's wall socket, surge protector then UPS. I doubt if a UPS will handle a sudden spike in the power any better than a computer will, as the UPS has a built in battery charger & sensitive electronics needed to switch in the battery immediately.

You mention plugging in a multi socket unit into the outlet of the UPS, which is OK but the more wattage you draw off the UPS when the power fails the shorter the time you have to shut everything down. Also the wattage rating quoted for the UPS will be for new batteries, so you need to allow for ageing of them.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Surge arrestors are less expensive than a UPS so running a UPS off an arrestor is a good idea as long as the arrestor is rated for the load. That way, the less expensive arrestor will take the first hit.

 

[GokAy]

These are the surge protectors I use:
SurgePro 7-gang - Surge Protector | Surge Protectors | Surge Protectors | Products | Tuncmatik Pure Power - ?yi Elektrik
SurgePro 5-gang - Surge Protector | Surge Protectors | Surge Protectors | Products | Tuncmatik Pure Power - ?yi Elektrik

Both UPS are set up now, I tried the TV side today and it was alright.
Haven't tried the PC UPS yet.
Though the real test will be closing the breaker for the living room, sometime during the day.
Ultimate test will be during a black out.

Another question
Does the battery last longer if, say, only modem/router is running (everything else on standby or shut down)?
If UPS powers 1200W for ~10-15 minutes, will it power 120W for ~100-150 minutes?

 

[Barman58]

If you do a search online for UPS calculator or UPS load calculator you should be able to check times etc, [of course UPS is also a major shipping company so you will have to filter these out ]

example here ... UPS System Load Calculator | Tripp Lite

you may find that the manufacturer of your devices have a bespoke calculator for their products on their sites

 

[GokAy]

Couldn't find a good page (branded ones work with their own UPS models) but found this page How to calculate battery backup time & AH capacity against UPS KVA rating? | CrazyEngineers

UPS Backup [in hours] = Battery Ah * Volts * Power Factor/Load

We need power in VA. (Load in watts)/pf gives VA.

Volts here representing the battery voltage and load in watts. If powerfactor is unknown, use 0.8 as a rule of third.

So for my TV (not sure if cable will work during a black out but anyway), UPS has 4 batteries:
UPS Backup [in hours] = Battery Ah (4x7) * Volts (12)* Power Factor (0.8)/Load (150) = 1.792 hours (if I am not doing any mistakes )

 

[Ranger4]

I think you have made a mistake on your calculation on the total time you can run the UPS during a power failure.

You seem to have used the sum of the AH of the batteries. usually the batteries are wired in parallel so you still only have 7 AH, not 28 AH.

When the batteries are wired in parallel the current draw is spread over the 4 batteries in this case, so the while the amperage draw may be say 20 amps, one 7 AH battery would flatten fairly quickly, but with 4 the time to flatten them will take in theory 4 times longer. Effectively each battery in this case would have an amperage draw of 5 amps.

To test the TV after you set it up with the UPS etc. Just turn off the power at the wall switch & see how long it go until the UPS shuts down.

 

[GokAy]

Hmm, yeah you are right, I guess. Please see the picture I took before removing the dead batteries (so I wouldn't forget how they were wired ). It seems the batteries are series of 2.



I will test the TV like that when I get the time.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

A UPS isn't practical for long term power supply; a backup generator is far more practical (and I have thought about getting one). A UPS is primarily for, when the power goes out, keeping something running until there is time to safely shut the equipment down. It can also provide the transition from when the power first goes out and a generator can fire up and start providing replacement power.

I got mine after one summer we had frequent blackouts, often several times a day, over a two or three week period until an elusive, intermittent short in an improperly spliced underground cable was finally found and our el cheapo absentee slumlord could be convinced to shell out the shekels to do a proper repair (replaced the missing section of conduit and pull new cable). I got an oversized UPS, not so I can run a long time after an outage, but to ensure my computer would get properly shut down even if we get multiple outages in a day without time for the batteries to recharge between outages. I also wanted the extra capacity for future expansion (such as the three 24" monitors and powered HDMI splitter that recently replaced the single 22" monitor I had when I got the UPS). Even though I have 1 hr. 44 min. run time showing right now, my UPS is set to automatically shut down my computer five minutes after an outage first starts. That both allows the computer to keep running if I all I get are short power blips and provides enough time to get the computer automatically properly shut down (hibernated, actually, so I don't lose any unsaved work) unless I need a few extra minutes to finish something, in which case I can intervene, then manually shut down.

 

[Ranger4]

That picture sure does clear up the issue. Yes it does seem they are wired in pairs so the effective voltage from them would be 24 volts, but the amp hourage is still 7 AH.

As the voltage is now 24 volts the amperage draw will be half what it would be with only 12 volts.

 

[GokAy]

Jeannie, you are right. I am not planning on running the devices during an outage either, especially the PC (I don't leave it unattended for extended periods, and usually shutdown).

Now, I sleep in the living room, got used to the sound from TV it's my lullaby. I should get awake due to the warning beeps from the UPS, however in case I don't it will be nice to know it will run long enough.

For me the most important reason to using them is cleanly shutting down the devices and avoid unclean energy when it first comes back.

 

[Ranger4]

You are correct Lady F. I have a back up generator, needed here because of power outages during storms etc. & I have used it on a number of occasions. I have it wired into the household system so I just change one switch, start the generator & I can run everything in the house very much as I usually do, except I do have to limit how many elements I use on the stove at any one time. It's 240 volt, 7.5 kilowatt petrol engined generator.

 

[GokAy]

I am living in an apartment by the way, they would probably kick me out if I start a generator in the house

The next apartment has one to power elevator and lights and I can hear it running from 50meters with windows closed during blackouts.