Any way to make folders in Start Menu - All Programs expandable

[zamar21]

Any way or hack to make folders in Start Menu - All Programs expandable withing All Programs Pan on mouse hover instead of mouse click, or cascadable on mouse hover? The only way I found mentioned is to use command line utility mklink for each folder you want to add expandable (or cascadable - I didn't try) to All Programs.

Open Command Prompt in %AppData%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu and enter the command:
mklink /D <Name to Pin as> <Target folder to pin>

For example, to pin Program Files, type:
mklink /D "Program Files" "%ProgramFiles%"

Is there a way to make it simpler and working for any folder already in Start Menu? All Programs folder in Start Menu is expandable by default: what registry setting delivers that? Can the same setting be auto added to any new folder under All Programs? And how to convert the existing ones?

P.S. I just tried mklink on the example above, and it simply pinned the folder without making it expandable. Probably, some switches should be added when running mklink to allow that?

 

[dunfiddlin]

I'm sorry but it doesn't matter how many times and in how many different ways you ask this question, the answer isn't going to change. It can't be done! If you want cascades that much, go back to XP!

 

[zamar21]

First of, the thread was created by Admin from my post in the relevant thread. Second, there is no such thing in software development, like you say. It just reflects your personal knowledge and experience, nothing else. Proof or explanation would help, if you have one. Why would MS intentionally block this from being modified - motive pls? Why would mouse hover instead of click represent a major threat? What about "mad scientist" approach - I'm not looking for a Menu option or program. I also tried to find Win 7 Shell Team's or another relevant Blog to ask this question - any link?

 

[dunfiddlin]

Well let's put the shoe on the other foot. Why would MS add reams of circuitous code to allow you to bypass most of the new features of their brand new OS? What's in it for them? Especially given that there's a huge range of third-party docks, program launchers, classic start menus and who wots what else available if you don't like the MS start menu.

If you want proof, then simply ask the guy who authored Classic Start Menu why he created an entirely separate program to bypass the MS coding rather than modify it? A large part of the OS now depends on embedded and encrypted style sheets. Unless you have access to MS secrets at a level we mere mortals cannot even dream of (or are happy to face charges of industrial espionage!) this makes some things not merely difficult but essentially impossible to change. You don't have to like it but you do have to lump it!

 

[zamar21]

This "feature request" isn't new. There were tons of complaints about Start Menu folders not expandable in Vista either. What I'm missing so far is MS motive to keep it non-expandable and non-cascadable on mouse hover, but ONLY clickable - must click to see the content. How it improves user experience, the benefits pls! How adding such option to Start Menu Prefs can harm MS - the option, users ask and ask about for years? If they want to differentiate newer software from previous one, there is a better way to do it: not by imposing senseless minor customization limitations, but making it more functional and flexible to adapt to every taste. If a folder is expandable on mouse hover, it won't make new Windows version unrecognizable - it will only make MS product look smarter and feel more efficient to use.

May be they just want to sell more Mouse devices, since these get broken a lot faster from ongoing clicks? What about pure user fingers and resulting professional diseases? What about user experience feedback, they get from sites like this one? Start Menu is the face of Windows, the most often used feature. Why not take user experience as its improvement guide? Not everything invented in the past gets obsolete by default - not for their prime user base. On purpose introduced inconvenience would never serve as sign of innovation or major difference, worth to spend money for. In fact, expand folders on mouse hover can look as a breakthrough in Windows efficiency.

 

[dunfiddlin]

This "feature request" isn't new. There were tons of complaints about Start Menu folders not expandable in Vista either. What I'm missing so far is MS motive to keep it non-expandable and non-cascadable on mouse hover, but ONLY clickable - must click to see the content. How it improves user experience, the benefits pls! How adding such option to Start Menu Prefs can harm MS - the option, users ask and ask about for years? If they want to differentiate newer software from previous one, there is a better way to do it: not by imposing senseless minor customization limitations, but making it more functional and flexible to adapt to every taste. If a folder is expandable on mouse hover, it won't make new Windows version unrecognizable - it will only make MS product look smarter and feel more efficient to use.

May be they just want to sell more Mouse devices, since these get broken a lot faster from ongoing clicks? What about pure user fingers and resulting professional diseases? What about user experience feedback, they get from sites like this one? Start Menu is the face of Windows, the most often used feature. Why not take user experience as its improvement guide? Not everything invented in the past gets obsolete by default - not for their prime user base. On purpose introduced inconvenience would never serve as sign of innovation or major difference, worth to spend money for. In fact, expand folders on mouse hover can look as a breakthrough in Windows efficiency.

I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that the silent majority actually like it this way and this is reflected in the feedback MS gathered? Those who have no reason to complain have no reason to post whining forum messages or make noise about it.

The fact is that everything you want was available in XP and yet they didn't continue with it. Since we're both agreed that MS is interested in selling the most units possible I can only conclude either that it is indeed a very small though very loud minority that wants it and it really wasn't in MS's commercial interest to include it for so insignificant a percentage of its users or that coding both options is just hugely impractical for some reason. Either way, the ease with which the start menu can be simply bypassed with third-party applications certainly doesn't make it a big enough deal for them to rework the whole package at this stage. Nor it would appear is it a big enough deal for the whiners to actually hold up on going from XP to 7 so that they can continue their bliss!

 

[zamar21]

Its hardly possible to collect feedback from "silent majority", as you put it. Look for example, what MS Tech pros say about this on Technet. I do understand however, resent revenue figures from Win 7 sales don't prompt for any improvement. As to impracticality, given options already in Start Menu Prefs, there would be really no big difference. Show me one single post that says "clicking on each folder in All Programs is a lot better than mouse hover expansion." If that was the case, why All Programs folder expands on mouse hover?

 

[dunfiddlin]

Its hardly possible to collect feedback from "silent majority", as you put it. Look for example, what MS Tech pros say about this on Technet. I do understand however, resent revenue figures from Win 7 sales don't prompt for any improvement. As to impracticality, given options already in Start Menu Prefs, there would be really no big difference. Show me one single post that says "clicking on each folder in All Programs is a lot better than mouse hover expansion." If that was the case, why All Programs folder expands on mouse hover?

All Programs isn't a folder and it doesn't expand. And I wrote almost exactly that in one of the threads here a few days ago so I'm fairly confident that I can show you a single one. :devil: The Technet thread does not appear to be unanimous by any means and even if it were, so what? I've never tried to pretend that there are some people who don't like the way W7 does things. I merely wonder why, knowing that this was never going to be available to them, they went ahead and spent cash on an upgrade which they apparently hated! XP is a thoroughly serviceable OS which I would still be using if it was not for a generous gift. So why abandon it for something which you consider inferior?

 

[zamar21]

So why abandon it for something which you consider inferior?

I never said that. In fact, Win 7 is working very well, and its UI (which is a small part of it's code) is way better in many aspects compare to Win XP. What I'm saying, there was no need to abandon such proven features as cascadable folders in Start Menu, even so their look and feel could be different from XP folders, and that feature could be switched off by default to make an impression of an entirely different and thoroughly reworked OS (if UI can be a solid indicator of that - probably for some users ). As well, there was no folder expansion within XP Start Menu Pan on Mouse Hover, so your reference to that is strange, so to speak. But it should be in Win 7, because its a better more productive and convenient way to browse start menu, and the UI team is supposed to concentrate namely on these targets for the next SP. As to "never will be", its laughable, as everything in this world is in relative terms, not absolute. If All Programs is not a folder or shortcut to a user's Programs folder, how would you call this folder: C:\Users\Your_Name\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs ?

 

[zamar21]

Btw, if anyone wants to make a suggestion to MS on any improvement in Win 7, you can do it using this Feedback Form:

Give Us Feedback for Windows 7

 

[dunfiddlin]

So why abandon it for something which you consider inferior?

I never said that. In fact, Win 7 is working very well, and its UI (which is a small part of it's code) is way better in many aspects compare to Win XP. What I'm saying, there was no need to abandon such proven features as cascadable folders in Start Menu, even so their look and feel could be different from XP folders, and that feature could be switched off by default to make an impression of an entirely different and thoroughly reworked OS (if UI can be a solid indicator of that - probably for some users ). As well, there was no folder expansion within XP Start Menu Pan on Mouse Hover, so your reference to that is strange, so to speak. But it should be in Win 7, because its a better more productive and convenient way to browse start menu, and the UI team is supposed to concentrate namely on these targets for the next SP. As to "never will be", its laughable, as everything in this world is in relative terms, not absolute. If All Programs is not a folder or shortcut to a user's Programs folder, how would you call this folder: C:\Users\Your_Name\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs ?

I would call that folder part of the resources called upon in the assembly of the All Programs Panel largely because it is just part. Unless you have manually arranged it thus there is no folder that contains all the constituents of this panel.

The XP start menu cascaded ... if that's not folder expansion, I don't know what is!

And as for being a more productive method, the W7 start panel can be brought up and completely navigated without your hands ever leaving the keyboard (which makes your earlier comment about selling more mice even more ridiculous!) and without needing to memorise weird key combinations - all you need is the arrow keys and Enter. How is that less productive than chasing cascading menus across the screen?

 

[zamar21]

Cascading Folders in Start Menu give a user a Bird View of installed programs scope at once. Some people have very large collections there, not possible to navigate efficiently by other means. Some create extra folder structure there to store closely related program shortcuts within to clear the common view. There was never an official reason given, why that feature, not particularly linked to any OS, was abandoned. I suspect that the reason was purely based on deficient marketing considerations proven to fail based on minuscule (on MS scale) Vista sales. When 7 was in the works, I suspect nobody timely turned attention of a Program Manager to that feature, otherwise it would be a part of the deal, as it costs nothing to add in exchange for a large number of satisfied users. Also, folder expansion within the Pan is not the same as cascading beyond it, but of similar "class". Example is All Programs content expansion on mouse hover.

 

[Ivo]

My guess is that one of the design goals was to support tablets, netbooks and other mobile devices with limited screen size. Unfortunately this comes at expense of us desktop users with big monitors that are largely unused by the start menu. My guess may be wrong.

 

[zamar21]

This may be one of considerations, but it doesn't explain lack of "cascadable" option in Start Menu Prefs, and not fully working "expandable" option, which is already there. Another consideration may be lack of the issue priority at development time. And very stubborn ignorance of the web buzz about it since Vista times tells that some personalities and ambitions got on the way at some point, like "MY decision is FINAL", which in turn requires now higher involvement level to fix, or some time or event passage.

 

[zamar21]

I would call that folder part of the resources called upon in the assembly of the All Programs Panel largely because it is just part. Unless you have manually arranged it thus there is no folder that contains all the constituents of this panel.

I'd like to add some structure to above Programs folder, as it's getting too big to browse in All Programs Pan. Is there a way to replicate All Programs filter shortcut to add a few of them to above Programs folder and group Programs under them by category, creating a simple hierarchy? The view will get uncluttered, and these shortcuts will expand within All Programs Pan on mouse hover, providing fast and easy orientation, while preserving Win 7 UI style. It may be a good idea to enrich All Programs Panel in next SP by allowing a user to add such expandable filters, as they won't prevent complete programs uninstall, while greatly improving usability. It will also play well under mentioned "Single OS fits all PC sizes" vision, and bypass "obsolete" cascading folder concept, so no personalities clash expected. The only request would be to make folder expansion a bit faster.

 

[jebuchanan]

Not wishing to get in the middle of this discussion, I just wanted to comment that I am one of those silent users that actually prefer the Start Menu as it is now over the way XP presented it.

 

[prospero]

Btw, if anyone wants to make a suggestion to MS on any improvement in Win 7, you can do it using this Feedback Form:

Give Us Feedback for Windows 7

I've been a Windows user since 3.1 and have gone through that and various incarnations: '95, '98SE, 2000, XP and now Windows 7 Pro and I've found (so far) 7 to be the best platform yet for speed, stability and usability.

Leave well alone, do you really want to add third-party software to your system?

Win 7 SP1 is, we are told, is on it's way; why not wait and see what's included in that - your issue might well be resolved there.

 

[zamar21]

I agree with you that Win 7 is awesome OS, as I commented above. The whole point is, I don't want to add any 3-d party utility to change its UI, but instead to have more flexibility and options available within it. Not sure, if SP1 will address any UI issues at all, since such changes are usually spared for major releases to push sales, not bug fixing SPs, despite the effort required to fix bugs and inadequacies can be a lot bigger. But since such option (expandable folders on mouse hover) already exists in Start Menu Prefs, there is a small hope it can be finalized to include other filters & folders in Start Menu apart from All Programs filter. The way to do it seems to be allowing to add such expandable filters within All Programs Pan, so that users can organize things there and avoid overcrowding. It may ONLY happen, if people express their need for such functionality. Simply waiting for MS to come with such solution after years of loud requests all over the web to return cascadable folders is naive - it won't happen without us.

 

[dunfiddlin]

Well, heartening as it always is to hear from a true believer (no matter how strange the faith), has any of you actually addressed this wave of protest to Microsoft itself? Cos there's nothing more naive than expecting them to respond to (or indeed even read) whiny posts in niche forums! If you get your way and they do render the start menu unusable again I certainly won't be making my protests here (except to thank you personally for forcing me to resort to 3rd party launchers, of course!)

 

[zamar21]

Thanks for the suggestion. I posted my requests to the mentioned MS link, but they are usually processed on statistical basis, taking also myriad of other policy and marketing, and "what the boss wants" considerations first. Don't get it, how enabling the ability to add expandable filters in All Programs Folder can affect you, if you don't want to use it? It'll just allow to clear the view, but only if you installed a lot of programs and consider your view cluttered. Basically, File Manager like Win Explorer serves the same purpose on a larger scale. Do you question the need to have a file manager & organizer too? Btw, I do think that many ppl in MS read and participate in forums and blogs, and some of those do this for leaving as prime job duty. Its also typical for a lot smaller companies, and very useful for such consumer product giants.