bootable cloning

[vlsi99xx]

Hello:

I am trying to understand if all backup applications that do cloning means that that a clone of the OS drive will be bootable without using any recovery disks . This means just plug the new cloned drive into the old drive and it should work (in theory). I know they may be some exceptions for laptops. For example, is m a c r i u m cloning bootable?



There is a product c a s p e r that claims to be easier faster , etc, etc, Is this just cloning or are they doing something different.

thank you

 

[mjf]

Yes a clone will be bootable.
A correctly imaged HDD will also be bootable. If you post a full Disk Management screenshot we can comment on partitions that need to be imaged.

 

[vlsi99xx]

This is interesting. Now I am more confused. When I look a file structure of a Windows backup system image , it seems that that the "image" needs to be uncompressed or something into another disk. I guess this discussion is in reference to my second question about the product " casper" where the claim is that your destination media of the cloned system disk can be plug back into the system and you boot as if the original disk were there (no recovery CD , etc).

As far as I know, all this image software applications need some kind of recovery disk with their application in order to restore the image.

For me bootable means that the cloned disk can be put in place of the original disk and the system should boot without doing anything. Is this the correct definition of of cloning? I am assuming with an image you can't do this.

If my understanding is true about cloning, I am trying to figure out what is so special about "casper" then.


thank you for your help.

 

[ignatzatsonic]

For me bootable means that the cloned disk can be put in place of the original disk and the system should boot without doing anything. Is this the correct definition of of cloning? I am assuming with an image you can't do this.

You are generally correct.

A successful clone is bootable immediately--the system is transferred from hard drive 1 to hard drive 2 in real time.

Imaging produces an image file. That image file is stored on some other partition and is not bootable. If the image file is then "restored" to a hard drive, the hard drive will then be bootable.

Imaging is most often used as a means of system recovery after a major problem, such as corruption, viruses, or drive failure. Cloning is most often used to move a system that is working well from one drive to another---as when upgrading to a larger hard drive.

You sometimes hear the 2 terms used as if they were synonyms, but they are in fact different processes with different results.

Neither is guaranteed to work.

 

[vlsi99xx]

Thanks for the response , now that I am sync with the understanding of cloning, I have more questions:

1- Do programs like Macrium and Paragon or most other that do "cloning" infer a bootbale disk or you still need to use their recovery disk to do something before you replace the failed disk? I am trying to understand that if I buy a program that performs "cloning" means what I understands to be or there are many other definitions.

2- The program casper (which I am thinking about buying) sounds like they just do cloning with supposedly better algorithm (faster, bla bla) or are they doing something different . I did not see the word cloning in their feature set.

thanks again

 

[ignatzatsonic]

1: I've never done a clone and am not sure if a bootable recovery disk is needed. Probably not? A bootable recovery disk is needed to restore an image. That disk can be a Linux-based disc or a WinPE disk. The WinPE disk is more flexible and more likely to boot without issues, but is a bit more difficult to make. Whichever you use, confirm that it will in fact boot your PC.

2: I'm unfamiliar with Casper, but for all I know they are using the term "cloning" to mean "imaging". You have to confirm that on your own--as I said, the 2 terms are often used interchangeably---incorrectly.

The free version of Macrium Reflect 5.0 appears to offer both cloning and imaging. See pic:

 

[kado897]

The free version of Macrium Reflect 5.0 appears to offer both cloning and imaging. See pic:

Yes it does. I have used it for cloning but not on an OS disk.

 

[Victor S]

2- The program casper (which I am thinking about buying) sounds like they just do cloning with supposedly better algorithm (faster, bla bla) or are they doing something different . I did not see the word cloning in their feature set.

Casper looks to be a high-priced cloning tool for encrypted hard drives.
You may do fine with free software. Not clear what your purpose is.
Here's something that hasn't been mentioned.
When you clone a HD your cloned drive has the same partition size of the partition you cloned. There may be a way around that - don't know. And that's fine if you intend to use it as your new system drive right away.
Otherwise it will sit somewhere unused, because you really don't want to write to it as a "working" drive. If that's okay, then a cloned system drive is fine. Put it in or connect it when you need it.
A system image created with Macrium, Ghost, True Image, etc., can be put in a folder on any drive. It is a simple file, and always smaller than the partition size, and can also be compressed when making it.
To restore the image you need to boot a CD or thumb drive. But you don't necessarily have to connect any hardware to get your system back.
With a cloned drive you don't need a boot CD, but have to connect the drive.
I don't know if you have to boot a CD to clone - never did it.
System imaging is more flexible. Personally, it has always served my needs, and that's why I have no experience cloning.
My main point is that you have to define your purpose before you decide whether to clone or image.

 

[kado897]

This is very true. You might also have mentioned that with imaging you can have as many images as your backup disk will hold.

 

[vlsi99xx]

This is very true. You might also have mentioned that with imaging you can have as many images as your backup disk will hold.

I agree, I think cloning and imaging could be part of your overall backup strategy. You could have a clone of your sys drive and several images versions.

For data, it is more of a grey area as you need a lot space for it and you may also want incremental images copies as well.

Victor: Casper looks to be a high-priced cloning tool for encrypted hard drives.

For $50 is a high price compare to free but it is within the range of most paid products.


thanks for all the feedback

 

[kado897]

This is very true. You might also have mentioned that with imaging you can have as many images as your backup disk will hold.

I agree, I think cloning and imaging could be part of your overall backup strategy. You could have a clone of your sys drive and several images versions.

For data, it is more of a grey area as you need a lot space for it and you may also want incremental images copies as well.

Victor: Casper looks to be a high-priced cloning tool for encrypted hard drives.

For $50 is a high price compare to free but it is within the range of most paid products.


thanks for all the feedback

I disagree on imaging data partitions. I think a File and Folder backup is preferable. The one I use is FreeFileSync which allows you to create a mirror with versions so you only have to do a full backup the first time. FreeFileSync | Free Security & Utilities software downloads at SourceForge.net. I made a video of it if you are interested. Backup With FreeFileSync - YouTube

 

[vlsi99xx]

I disagree on imaging data partitions. I think a File and Folder backup is preferable. The one I use is FreeFileSync which allows you to create a mirror with versions so you only have to do a full backup the first time. FreeFileSync | Free Security & Utilities software downloads at SourceForge.net. I made a video of it if you are interested. Backup With FreeFileSync - YouTube

Some questions:
1- Do you have experience with large chunk of data 1Tb? (nice video by the way)
2- When you say with mirror with versions, are you able automatically select how many copies of version you want to keep?
3- Does it stop access to the disks that you are mirror from and to?
4- How do know you if a file copy fails ? (log file or some other indication, like email)
5- Any idea of the time it takes per GB of data approx ?



Would you mind sharing why imaging with incremental backups is not a good idea for data?

thanks

 

[kado897]

Thanks
1. No my total data is about 500GB.
2. No that is something you will have to to as a manual exercise from time to time. It only creates a version if there are any changes to the folder pair.
3. No it uses VSS like Windows backup to freeze the state.
4. There is a log created with each run showing exactly what happened.
5. It depends on a number of factors like any file copy. The type of disk and the file sizes being the main determinants. I use a USB attached backup drive and most of my data is also on a USB attached drive so I have the worst of all situations. Obviously the initial backup took some time but I spread the pain around by by gradually adding folder pairs over a week. Now that it is all set up I have created a task to run the job daily and that usually takes less than a minute to run. Today it backed up 42 files, 1.0GB of data in 1 minute 21 seconds.

 

[mjf]

In terms of immediately bootable then:
1) A clone requires a new HDD at the time of cloning. Therefore, immediately bootable in that sense.
2) An image + reimage to a new HDD is bootable. The reimaged HDD is immediately bootable. This is how I create a cold immediately bootable standby. I see no reason to clone.
3) Given you can store many images on an external HDD then reimaging a more recent image to a spare HDD is a better option IMO provided you have ~45 minutes to spare.

 

[vlsi99xx]

In terms of immediately bootable then:
1) A clone requires a new HDD at the time of cloning. Therefore, immediately bootable in that sense.
2) An image + reimage to a new HDD is bootable. The reimaged HDD is immediately bootable. This is how I create a cold immediately bootable standby. I see no reason to clone.
3) Given you can store many images on an external HDD then reimaging a more recent image to a spare HDD is a better option IMO provided you have ~45 minutes to spare.

Hi:

Can you explain what an image plus reimage means?
I thought an imaged HDD is in format that need a recovery CD to uncompressed the data into the new or same HDD. The cloning is basically a mirror copy of the HDD sector by sector in a format that you can browse with a file viewer with identical file structure as the original and therefore immediately bootable.

How do you create this image reimage setup? Can you do it with WINDOWS backup?

thanks

 

[ignatzatsonic]

In terms of immediately bootable then:
1) A clone requires a new HDD at the time of cloning. Therefore, immediately bootable in that sense.
2) An image + reimage to a new HDD is bootable. The reimaged HDD is immediately bootable. This is how I create a cold immediately bootable standby. I see no reason to clone.
3) Given you can store many images on an external HDD then reimaging a more recent image to a spare HDD is a better option IMO provided you have ~45 minutes to spare.

Hi:

Can you explain what an image plus reimage means?
I thought an imaged HDD is in format that need a recovery CD to uncompressed the data into the new or same HDD. The cloning is basically a mirror copy of the HDD sector by sector in a format that you can browse with a file viewer with identical file structure as the original and therefore immediately bootable.

How do you create this image reimage setup? Can you do it with WINDOWS backup?

thanks

I think MJF simply means make an image file and restore it.

"Image" means make the image file.

"Reimage" means restore it.

 

[mjf]

In terms of immediately bootable then:
1) A clone requires a new HDD at the time of cloning. Therefore, immediately bootable in that sense.
2) An image + reimage to a new HDD is bootable. The reimaged HDD is immediately bootable. This is how I create a cold immediately bootable standby. I see no reason to clone.
3) Given you can store many images on an external HDD then reimaging a more recent image to a spare HDD is a better option IMO provided you have ~45 minutes to spare.

Hi:

Can you explain what an image plus reimage means?
I thought an imaged HDD is in format that need a recovery CD to uncompressed the data into the new or same HDD. The cloning is basically a mirror copy of the HDD sector by sector in a format that you can browse with a file viewer with identical file structure as the original and therefore immediately bootable.

How do you create this image reimage setup? Can you do it with WINDOWS backup?

thanks

I think MJF simply means make an image file and restore it.

"Image" means make the image file.

"Reimage" means restore it.

Correct but I don't use the term "Restore" because a Windows "System Restore" is actually different and uses Restore Points and is not a (system) reimage. Maybe I shouldn't be lazy and say "system image recovery".