Solved Forced full backups after a successful restore

[amrobx]

Every single time I have to restore my installation for whatever reason, the backup/restore utility always creates a new, full data files/image backup. As one can imagine, this gets very large after a while and I would prefer it to continue backing up incrementally. Is there any way of informing or resetting Windows that the backup is still there, intact, and that there is no need for another full backup? I did find a bit of a workaround using the "make incremental backup" tutorial/download here on the forums, but I was wondering if there was possibly another way without doing any more backups (until scheduled, of course). Let me know if any more info is needed. Thanks in advance. Edit: Upon checking the backup files, the above workaround does not work, unfortunately. It still thinks it must perform another full backup.

 

[kado897]

Hi amrobx and welcome to Seven Forums.

I don't think you have any control over the image backup but the file and folder backup can be controlled. See this tutorial http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/203191-backup-make-create-incremental-backup-shortcut.html

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
note however in addition to the tutorial that if you do a FULL restore using incremental backups you need to do the following

1) FULL restore from the last FULL backup you have taken.
2) Restore ALL the incremental backups in the order they were taken up to an including the last one.

on a NON FULL restore

you need to restore ALL the incremental backups from the earliest known COMPLETE file GOOD date to the latest good date.

for example you need to restore file X. You know it was good on wed, and thur but not sure about Fri.
so you restore full file from wed and thur version. (You need both since the thur version will only have the CHANGES from wed).


@kado897 -- I'm 100% positive that image copies (partition copies for example) can only be restored in their entirety -- not a problem when restoring an OS. Data however can be restored via incremental backups as you've stated.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[kado897]

Image copies can only be restored in their entirety except that if you know what you are doing you can mount the VHD file in the WindowsImageBackup folder and extract files from it. http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/566-virtual-hard-disk-create-attach-vhd.html

 

[amrobx]

Hi there
note however in addition to the tutorial that if you do a FULL restore using incremental backups you need to do the following

1) FULL restore from the last FULL backup you have taken.
2) Restore ALL the incremental backups in the order they were taken up to an including the last one.

on a NON FULL restore

you need to restore ALL the incremental backups from the earliest known COMPLETE file GOOD date to the latest good date.

for example you need to restore file X. You know it was good on wed, and thur but not sure about Fri.
so you restore full file from wed and thur version. (You need both since the thur version will only have the CHANGES from wed).


@kado897 -- I'm 100% positive that image copies (partition copies for example) can only be restored in their entirety -- not a problem when restoring an OS. Data however can be restored via incremental backups as you've stated.

Cheers
jimbo

That seems like a fair amount of restoration to get the desired effect, especially considering the amount of data I have. So I would have to restore, incrementally, each file to the date of the last backup in order for the utility to behave as if the files were unchanged from the image restore? Also, how do I differentiate files in the backups as incremental vs. full?

@Kado
That was the tutorial I used before. At first, I thought it was incremental, but it actually did not change its behavior. It made a completely new full backup from the one made prior to re-imaging.

 

[kado897]

@Kado
That was the tutorial I used before. At first, I thought it was incremental, but it actually did not change its behavior. It made a completely new full backup from the one made prior to re-imaging.

The image portion of the backup, if any is included, will be differential with the WindowsImageBackup folder representing the final state and the differentials held in shadow storage. The incremental description refers to the File and Folder part of the backup. In normal circumstances Windows backup uses it's own nearly indecipherable rules to determine whether this should be full or incremental. This shortcut forces an incremental, provided of course that there is already a full backup to be the base.

 

[Victor S]

You might do better by making system and data imaging separate processes.
I haven't done all the various backup permutations the Win 7 utility allows, but fairly quickly found some disadvantages it has compared to other imaging software, and decided not to use it. But that was just due to my preferences.
Since you like incrementals for your data, you might find that doing them without the system image ticked will allow those to be restored without a needless extra image being taken.
Do the system images separately, either with Win 7 or other imaging software.
I don't know if that would resolve your issue, but it's easy enough to test.
I don't want to dismiss the Win 7 incremental and scheduling capabilities, since that can be valuable to some people. So the object is to get it doing what you want, by adjusting to its capabilities.
Sometimes I wish I had stayed with the Win 7 backup, so I could play guru here.
But I didn't. Still, as a long time computer guy, I can confidently say that fully automated processes often add more complexity than is good, and that divide and conquer is the best tool for solving problems.

 

[amrobx]

In normal circumstances Windows backup uses it's own nearly indecipherable rules to determine whether this should be full or incremental. This shortcut forces an incremental, provided of course that there is already a full backup to be the base.

I am beginning to believe the indecipherable part. There was a preexisting full file backup prior to the image restore, but even with the shortcut mentioned above, it still made another full file backup.

You might do better by making system and data imaging separate processes.
I haven't done all the various backup permutations the Win 7 utility allows, but fairly quickly found some disadvantages it has compared to other imaging software, and decided not to use it. But that was just due to my preferences.
Since you like incrementals for your data, you might find that doing them without the system image ticked will allow those to be restored without a needless extra image being taken.
Do the system images separately, either with Win 7 or other imaging software.
I don't know if that would resolve your issue, but it's easy enough to test.
I don't want to dismiss the Win 7 incremental and scheduling capabilities, since that can be valuable to some people. So the object is to get it doing what you want, by adjusting to its capabilities.
Sometimes I wish I had stayed with the Win 7 backup, so I could play guru here.
But I didn't. Still, as a long time computer guy, I can confidently say that fully automated processes often add more complexity than is good, and that divide and conquer is the best tool for solving problems.

It's not the most feature-rich utility, granted, but it is native and doesn't require more installations. I've also had a bad taste left behind by several of the more popular utilities, both free and shareware. They usually either caused a BSOD, corrupted the MBR, or something along those lines. Surprisingly or not, I've never encountered any weird issues stemming from the native backup.

As far as doing them separately, the imaging isn't the only problem, since the data file backup also makes another full backup. That is what makes the whole thing so large and it is only after a restore that this happens.


If it comes down to it, is there a particular backup utility, preferably freeware, that would be recommended? Either that or I can just learn to live with the annoyance and delete older data as needed, I suppose.

 

[ignatzatsonic]

If it comes down to it, is there a particular backup utility, preferably freeware, that would be recommended? Either that or I can just learn to live with the annoyance and delete older data as needed, I suppose.

Macrium Reflect Free Edition is the most common recommendation to backup your C partition (Windows and whatever else is on C)

Synctoy and Karen's Replicator are among the most common recommendations to back up your personal files, not Windows.

All of them free. All of them are about as easily understood as possible for such applications.

 

[mjf]

Every single time I have to restore my installation for whatever reason, the backup/restore utility always creates a new, full data files/image backup.

Firstly when using Windows Backup and Restore I think it is wise to separate the
1) file/folder backup process and
2) the image process

They are totally different and do not need to be performed simultaneously. In your backup schedule select "Let me choose" and untick the create a system image box. This way only file/folder backups will be made. When you want an image use the separate "Create a system image" button on the left of the Backup and restore screen.

When you reimage you also replace the file/folder contents in the image. This may be different from your latest file/folder backup set. If the image is older you may want to restore file/folder user files after the reimage. In any event Windows file/folder backup creates a new backup set as a consistent starting point after the reimage. A bit crude I suppose.

 

[amrobx]

Every single time I have to restore my installation for whatever reason, the backup/restore utility always creates a new, full data files/image backup.

Firstly when using Windows Backup and Restore I think it is wise to separate the
1) file/folder backup process and
2) the image process

They are totally different and do not need to be performed simultaneously. In your backup schedule select "Let me choose" and untick the create a system image box. This way only file/folder backups will be made. When you want an image use the separate "Create a system image" button on the left of the Backup and restore screen.

When you reimage you also replace the file/folder contents in the image. This may be different from your latest file/folder backup set. If the image is older you may want to restore file/folder user files after the reimage. In any event Windows file/folder backup creates a new backup set as a consistent starting point after the reimage. A bit crude I suppose.

I may just do this, even though I like it on a schedule. I make manual backups, too, but only when I'm trying new programs or changing major settings. The behavior is cruder than I would prefer, honestly, but it at least works for me and I don't have to install anything extra.

 

[Victor S]

As far as doing them separately, the imaging isn't the only problem, since the data file backup also makes another full backup. That is what makes the whole thing so large and it is only after a restore that this happens.

That's odd, that it does another backup. Is it possible you missed some setting
in the process, perhaps in the scheduling?
It never did that to me upon restoring, but I only cold restores using the system recovery disk. System images only.
Just doesn't make sense that it would do another backup like that without it being requested in some manner.

 

[amrobx]

As far as doing them separately, the imaging isn't the only problem, since the data file backup also makes another full backup. That is what makes the whole thing so large and it is only after a restore that this happens.

That's odd, that it does another backup. Is it possible you missed some setting
in the process, perhaps in the scheduling?
It never did that to me upon restoring, but I only cold restores using the system recovery disk. System images only.
Just doesn't make sense that it would do another backup like that without it being requested in some manner.

Interesting. I'll try it with the recovery disk instead. That may make a difference somehow. Worst case scenario is that I have to do a full backup again, but I've gotten used to it by now.

I don't think I missed anything in the scheduling and setup process. I chose my backup location, then I customized what I wanted to back up (which was music, documents, photos, and the appdata folder), and I included a system image. I just used the default weekly schedule, as it doesn't matter which day for me. I don't know of any more bases to cover as far as setup goes.

 

[Victor S]

Interesting. I'll try it with the recovery disk instead. That may make a difference somehow. Worst case scenario is that I have to do a full backup again, but I've gotten used to it by now.

I don't think I missed anything in the scheduling and setup process. I chose my backup location, then I customized what I wanted to back up (which was music, documents, photos, and the appdata folder), and I included a system image. I just used the default weekly schedule, as it doesn't matter which day for me. I don't know of any more bases to cover as far as setup goes.

This may sound silly, and be totally wrong, but I'll take a flyer on it.
One thing that "bothered" me (not much) was doing a Win 7 restore, and basically the Win 7 internal logic not recognizing that very backup. Because it was restored to before the backup was actually taken. Remembering I do cold images.
But that must also be true using "warm" restores. I haven't done a restore from within Win 7, so can't say how that works. But I imagine it shuts down the Win 7 system, and actually restores a mirror image of the image taken.
If you have the backup scheduled as "Weekly" as opposed to say Sunday, 7PM, what happens?
Here's a WASG. You restore today, 20120527. The image was done 20120401, and is marked with that date to Win 7 in various places. The image doesn't know the future, but Win 7 has current date.
It compares current date of 20120527 to a the fixed date of 20120401, as part of the scheduling routine check.
It's more than a week, so it starts a backup.
Just a WASG.

 

[kado897]

In normal circumstances Windows backup uses it's own nearly indecipherable rules to determine whether this should be full or incremental. This shortcut forces an incremental, provided of course that there is already a full backup to be the base.

I am beginning to believe the indecipherable part. There was a preexisting full file backup prior to the image restore, but even with the shortcut mentioned above, it still made another full file backup.

Now that I think back one of the reasons I stopped using Windows backup for Files and Folders was exactly what you described. Full backups after an image restore. It sorted itself out eventually but in the meantime I went initially to SyncToy and more recently to FreeFileSync for my data backups. The reason I moved to FreeFileSync from SyncToy is that it supports versioning.

 

[mjf]

I thought I'd suggested the reason for a full file/folder backup after a reimage.
I believe this will always happen because the file/folder structure after the reimage of say an older image may be quite different from your most recent file/folder backup set.
Now you can use the file/folders from the reimage or restore your most recent backup set.
Unless everything is synchronized it's completely sensible to make another file/folder backup set after you make the decision to keep the reimage file/folders or replace them with another backup set.

 

[kado897]

The problem is that it kept doing full backups for some time.

 

[mjf]

The problem is that it kept doing full backups for some time.

This hasn't been my experience. Admittedly, Windows will decide at some stage (algorithm unknown) to make a new backup set regardless.

I did a check on this earlier on. A full backup set was made after the reimage. The next was an incremental.

 

[amrobx]

Looks like I'll have to live with it. It's annoying, but at least I'll have my files on hand. I may purchase the personal version of Macrium Reflect eventually, since it does both imaging and data file backups, but I will wait for a coupon or promo before I do it.

 

[amrobx]

Okay, so I came up with a redundant approach using the Macrium Reflect WindowsPE disc and Cobian backup (app only). The latter works well to backup my game saves, since it supports VSS--not many other utilities allow me to backup appdata files. I like that the extra software install is very minimal, even if I have to manually boot to the disc. At the very least, it is extra protection in case the finicky MS backup and restore doesn't work like I'd want it to (though it has worked flawlessly or me since 10/09).