Kinda-slow?

[bjrichus]

I have allocated 2Gb RAM to my VM (Virtual PC and XP as D/L from microsoft), but it still limps along when I start up an app.

This isn't too terrible really, just annoying.

If I start a virtual XP mode application (without starting the full XP client), it says "Preparing to launch application..." in the message box for what feels like ages (but is probably a little less than a minute), before it actually launches the thing.

Someone who knows more about this 'under the hood' might be able to confirm if it's starting up the full VM in the background, even if the user interface (the window session itself) isn't visible?

 

[huisinro]

yes, when you start an app, the full vm has to be booted and fully started. Since the app is running inside the vm, it requires XP to be running.

Individual apps are launched using RemoteApp technology that is available to Windows 2008 server. The virtual xp mode contains a simple implementation of RemoteApp. RemoteApp requires some patches to the terminal server inside XP. The reason is slow is due to RDP connections.

If you hibernate the vm, instead of shuting it down, it will save you the vm start time.

 

[Kari]

I have allocated 2Gb RAM to my VM (Virtual PC and XP as D/L from microsoft), but it still limps along when I start up an app.

This isn't too terrible really, just annoying.

If I start a virtual XP mode application (without starting the full XP client), it says "Preparing to launch application..." in the message box for what feels like ages (but is probably a little less than a minute), before it actually launches the thing.

Someone who knows more about this 'under the hood' might be able to confirm if it's starting up the full VM in the background, even if the user interface (the window session itself) isn't visible?

Hello, bjrichus. Welcome to the SevenForums.

Starting a Virtual XP Mode Application from Win7 start menu is exactly the same as starting Virtual XP and launching the application from there. Virtual XP is kind a slow, though there are some things you can do to finetune your system.

Short finetune checklist:

• Use full screen modus. I have been testing with some software, detecting about 5% faster launch times using Virtual XP in full screen. Not much but everything counts
• Disable Aero from your host machine
• Change performance settings on Virtual XP to Adjust for best performance (right click My Computer > Properties > Advance > Performance)
• Do not turn your Virtual XP off, let it hibernate

This is not so much but at least you should notice something.

Kari

 

[bjrichus]

Kari,

Thanks for the tip about performance settings. I'll see what changing that does.

huisinro,

Thanks too. I have been hibernating my XP, not doing a full shut down.


Virtual PC is new after all, and once it comes out of beta, I hope it'll be a bit faster, but then like all VM stuff, it's never as good as having an entire machine dedicated to the "guest", now is it?

 

[pparks1]

My advice, for performance you cannot use the Virtual XP mode. It just stinks in terms of performance. I use VMWare Server 2.0 (free) and Sun VirtualBox (free as well) and performance in both of these apps is far better than XP Mode.

See my recent thread here for some quantifiable timings that I did to demonstrate the slow performance;
http://www.sevenforums.com/virtualization/21575-xp-mode-slow-any-way-improve.html

And it's not just me doing something wrong, here is a forum post from technet that I have posted in and others have seen the same slow performance.
http://social.technet.microsoft.com.../thread/61f27018-137f-4bbc-8ed1-80747bbb0688/

 

[Kari]

...
...
Virtual PC is new after all, and once it comes out of beta, I hope it'll be a bit faster, but then like all VM stuff, it's never as good as having an entire machine dedicated to the "guest", now is it?

It's been out of beta quite a while now. You can download Virtual PC and Virtual XP Mode Release Candidates here.

Kari

 

[bjrichus]

My advice, for performance you cannot use the Virtual XP mode. It just stinks in terms of performance. I use VMWare Server 2.0 (free) and Sun VirtualBox (free as well) and performance in both of these apps is far better than XP Mode.

I use VMWare Server on an XP 64bit PC at work too (not my Windows 7 machine). I get about 90% of what I'd like for app speed, apart from guest VM boot time, where it is really SLOW (on a par with Windows 7 VPC), but then I've got all sorts of specialist drivers loaded in that VM. If it wasn't for the need to keep running one last 32 bit app that we won't spend the cash on to update some infrastructure to accomodate the 64 bit version, I doubt I'd bother with VMWare on the desktop, apart from playing with a couple of Linux distros as well that is...

VirtualBox was 'almost there' about a year ago the last time I looked at it, perhaps once this Oracle purchase of Sun mess is resolved the thing will be worth looking at again?

 

[Kari]

Just tested a tip a colleague told me today, and it really boosts the virtual machine! Do this:

• Turn off / Hibernate all running virtual machines
• Open C:\Users\Your_Username\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows Virtual PC\Options.xml with Notepad
• Add this somewhere between the Preferences tags:
  • <virtual_machines>
    <enable_idle_thread type="boolean">true</enable_idle_thread>
    </virtual_machines><br/>
• Save the file

This allows your virtual machine to use more of the hosts resources, thus increasing the performance. A very clear difference!

Kari

 

[bjrichus]

Just tested a tip a colleague told me today, and it really boosts the virtual machine!

Kari,

The file is in a slighlty different location on the retail build:

c:\Users\Your-user\AppData\local\Microsoft\Windows Virtual PC\Options.xml

There is an existing pair of <virtual_machines> </virtual_machines> tags.

I slid the suggested "enable_idle_....." entry in there, but after the other entry..

All I can say is that this gives the VPC.EXE process a turbo boost.

With it, vpc.exe uses up to 80% of my CPU (Core 2 Duo @ 2.5Ghz), when something is happening in the VPC and about nothing when the VPC is hibernated!

Without it, there is a lot more switching between other processes and stuff like vpc.exe uses much less CPU to start and run - a maximum of about 50% is usual.

An interesting tip.

 

[Kari]

Just tested a tip a colleague told me today, and it really boosts the virtual machine!

Kari,

The file is in a slighlty different location on the retail build:

c:\Users\Your-user\AppData\local\Microsoft\Windows Virtual PC\Options.xml
...

Same place, I just had a typo. I've edited my post now to give the right address. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm happy to hear you also noticed the boost. It is almost incredible to see what these couple lines of XML have done to my Virtual PC.

Kari

 

[johngalt]

Hmmm - See, I am a college student, and now you've piqued my interest. I want to pit VBox 3 versus Virtual XP Mode versus the *hush hush* VMware I am signing up to test in a couple of days. I suspect VBox and VMware won't have that much of an edge now that this little trick has been exposed - but they'll still have advantages over Virtual P Mode, and vice versa, XP Mode will have advantages (such as directly loading an XP app without having to manually start the VM) over the other two.

Perhaps this little trick needs to be pushed out as a part of the final XP Mode / VPC when it is released?

 

[pparks1]

I tried this change and it did improve performance within XP Mode...however for me VMWare Server 2.0, VMWare ESXi, and Sun Virtual Box are still faster.

The other limitations of Virtual PC and XP Mode for me include
1). requirement for a processor with virtualization support
2). inability to run a 64-bit guest
3). no guest additions for OS's that aren't supplied by Microsoft.

 

[johngalt]

Lol - thanks - you saved me a weekend of testing!

 

[pparks1]

I'd still do some testing just to make sure that your opinions and findings are the same as mine.....unless it's the numbered list of negatives that is the real downfall. It is for me, as a high percentage of my virtual machines are indeed non MS OS's.

 

[johngalt]

All but 2 of mine are as well - I play around in Xubuntu, Gentoo, and am starting to play with Arch again.

 

[Kari]

I tried this change and it did improve performance within XP Mode...however for me VMWare Server 2.0, VMWare ESXi, and Sun Virtual Box are still faster.

The other limitations of Virtual PC and XP Mode for me include
1). requirement for a processor with virtualization support
2). inability to run a 64-bit guest
3). no guest additions for OS's that aren't supplied by Microsoft.

1.) Almost all new computers support virtualization
2.) Virtual PC is mostly used to run older software. There's almost no need to run a 64-bit guest
3.) Guest additions, or using MS-language the Integration Features work very well, guest OS integrates seamlessly with Windows 7. How is it a negative thing that this integration is done by Microsoft?

 

[bjrichus]

I tried this change and it did improve performance within XP Mode...however for me VMWare Server 2.0, VMWare ESXi, and Sun Virtual Box are still faster.

The other limitations of Virtual PC and XP Mode for me include
1). requirement for a processor with virtualization support
2). inability to run a 64-bit guest
3). no guest additions for OS's that aren't supplied by Microsoft.

PPARKS1...

I just got my (old) XP/SP3 VM Server 1 VM running in VM Server 2 with no conversion effort needed at all... All I did was the tell the console that it was a copy of a VM from another PC and it ran.

I got to agree with you: it rocks - BIG TIME!!!

It booted the full VM in about half the time that VPC takes - even with all the old drivers and other rubbish it won't need on the newer hardware still configured - and being disabled and the new H/W it found being configured in.

Booting the second time was quicker still... I can get to the point where an application can start up in about 40% of the time VPC took.

Ok, so I lose the really tight integration for apps (no start menu thing to click on), but the time saved using VMWare Server more than makes up for it. Oh yes, did I say my Ubuntu VM was up and running all through this too?

When it gets to the non-beta version, unless MS can get VPC much closer to the kind of speed I am getting out of VMWare, I'm not going to bother with it anymore.

:shock:

 

[johngalt]

I tried this change and it did improve performance within XP Mode...however for me VMWare Server 2.0, VMWare ESXi, and Sun Virtual Box are still faster.

The other limitations of Virtual PC and XP Mode for me include
1). requirement for a processor with virtualization support
2). inability to run a 64-bit guest
3). no guest additions for OS's that aren't supplied by Microsoft.

1.) Almost all new computers support virtualization
2.) Virtual PC is mostly used to run older software. There's almost no need to run a 64-bit guest
3.) Guest additions, or using MS-language the Integration Features work very well, guest OS integrates seamlessly with Windows 7. How is it a negative thing that this integration is done by Microsoft?

pparks meant that with other VMs you can run them even if your machine does *not* support virtualization, and they allow for emulation even if you have virtualization but don't want to use it (to simulate older machines, for example).

As for no need to run a 64bit guest - not for you - but plenty of people have 32bit OSs that they need to run a 64bit guest in. My laptop, for instance, came with Vista Business 32bit and was upgraded to W7 32bit - in VPC I cannot run a 64bit XP but in VBox I can.

The guest additions only works on VMs from M$ - IOW, it doesn't work is you try to run *nix in Virtual mode. At least, that is what I think pparks was referring to....

You have to realize that many of us use Virtual machines not just to emulate XP, but a whole slew of other OSs, from Gentoo Linux to BSD to Q!Linux to older OSs like 9x, 3.1, OS/2 Warp, even server OSs - RHEL, M$ Server (which you get free from DreamSpark, including a full use license) and other types of OSs.

It's not just about XP with many users of virtual machines. - some of us have legitimate reasons that have *nothing* to do with application / OS integration (meaning we're not just using it to get older apps that worked only in XP to run again).

 

[pparks1]

1.) Almost all new computers support virtualization
2.) Virtual PC is mostly used to run older software. There's almost no need to run a 64-bit guest
3.) Guest additions, or using MS-language the Integration Features work very well, guest OS integrates seamlessly with Windows 7. How is it a negative thing that this integration is done by Microsoft?

#1). Yes, I understand most modern processors do support this. But there are handfuls of semi-modern era CPU's which don't have support. (even some core 2 duo's and core 2 quad). It's probably a bit of a bummer with people who have those chips

#2). People use VM's for all sorts of things. I have to test for a fair amount of 64-bit support in my office and such...thus having the ability to do that is important to me and is something offered by the other players

#3). I'm talking about the guest additions that you install within the running VM itself? VMware and such have these tools for Windows guests as well as Linux guests....but the Virtual PC product only has them for Windows guests. For those of us using a fair amount of non-Microsoft based VM's...that's a real bummer.


The thing that really bums me out about all of this is not having a free activated Windows XP license even though I paid for Windows 7 Business, Enterprise or Ultimate. This free license for XP only applies if I use the Microsoft VM solution and as experience and others have confirmed, the performance of the MS implementation here is severely lacking.

 

[pparks1]

Just tested a tip a colleague told me today, and it really boosts the virtual machine! Do this:

• Turn off / Hibernate all running virtual machines
• Open C:\Users\Your_Username\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows Virtual PC\Options.xml with Notepad
• Add this somewhere between the Preferences tags:
  • <virtual_machines>
    <enable_idle_thread type="boolean">true</enable_idle_thread>
    </virtual_machines><br/>
• Save the file

This allows your virtual machine to use more of the hosts resources, thus increasing the performance. A very clear difference!

Kari

I tried this change on my box and here were the results based on the hardware found in this post: http://www.sevenforums.com/virtualization/21575-xp-mode-slow-any-way-improve.html

• Prior to this change, time to boot Windows XP SP3 until the desktop with no hourglass: 56 seconds
• With this change above, same test: 44 seconds
• This same test with Sun Virtual Box 3.0.4 : 25 seconds

My other test was to launch the OS and then open Open Office writer in the VM

• Prior to this change, time to boot Windows XP SP3 until the desktop and then launch Open Office writer: 66 seconds
• With this change in place: 63 seconds
• This same test with Sun Virtual Box 3.0.4 : 35 seconds