Normal service is resumed as Windows 7's growth once again.....

[SIW2]

+1. to Boozad

The number of purely deskbound people sitting in those 1960's style of "tiny cubes" in an office is definitely rapidly diminishing

Where's the evidence for this? In the company I work for I can guarantee there are thousands of people working in that exact environment, and any other Aerospace or automotive company. And call centers, and distribution companies, and God knows how many other businesses. None of them need a mobile device as they're all still deskbound, they're not going to be sitting in a windy, wet field with a Surface Pro.

 

[ThrashZone]

Because most u.s.a. and u.k... for that matter jobs are being outsourced so these cubicles are not there anymore

 

[SIW2]

No idea what you mean. There were over 600,00 call centre workers in the UK last I heard. A large number considering the size of the population.

Work that has been outsourced to India etc is also done on proper machines as far as I can tell.

I think Jimbo is bellowing about a small proportion of workers , who want something portable in the field. They already have a variety of ultrabooks and ipad type things, so what is new?

 

[ThrashZone]

I'm sure 600.00 is a typo,
But as of 2012 u.k. was at 63.6 million so even 600K isn't that many,
The u.s. 2014 was 318.3 million

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...the Surface pro 3 with the docking station can be used PERFECTLY as a "Classical computer" and plugged in to ENORMOUS monitors if you want to -- and it's so much lighter and more portable than typical laptops. Out in the field you can also use it as a standard laptop - although it really is easier with the On screen keyboard for submitting small reports - so it works in BOTH modes if you want...

That simply is not true and if you seriously think it is, you are woefully deluded. There is no way the Surface Pro 3 can drive large, multiple monitors with any kind of usable resolution; it simply doesn't have a powerful enough GPU. When the specs were announced for the SP3, I compared them to my notebooks and it fell woefully short, especially compared to my newest one, and there is no way my notebook could ever compete with my desktop. The keyboards, both that flimsy film job that doubles as a cover and the one onscreen, don't even come close in usability and durability compared to the keyboards on my two notebooks.

The only advantage the SP3 has over laptop and desktop computers is portability and even that is trumped by the increased portability of less powerful cell phones and their smaller screens. When compared to other tablets with similar screen sizes, it is destroyed by its higher cost and/or lack of apps.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

The number of purely deskbound people sitting in those 1960's style of "tiny cubes" in an office is definitely rapidly diminishing

Where's the evidence for this? In the company I work for I can guarantee there are thousands of people working in that exact environment, and any other Aerospace or automotive company. And call centers, and distribution companies, and God knows how many other businesses. None of them need a mobile device as they're all still deskbound, they're not going to be sitting in a windy, wet field with a Surface Pro.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Because most u.s.a. and u.k... for that matter jobs are being outsourced so these cubicles are not there anymore

From what I've seen, I doubt it. Many U.S. companies who had outsourced their call centers are bringing them back to the U.S.A. because the poor quality service customers were receiving was driving those customers away. Carbonite is one company that comes to mind that has done so recently (in the past year or two). Customer service and tech help aren't the only occupations that utilizes cubical farms.

 

[SIW2]

Not a typo.

That is quite a large proportion of the working population.

Here is an artcle - a couple of years ago, but I have no reason to believe the numbers have gone down.

More people have worked in call centres than ever worked in the mining industry

I heard the 600,000 figure maybe four or five years ago, it has gone up since:

Over one million people are employed in contact centres, according to analysis firm ContactBabel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12691704

I'm sure 600.00 is a typo,
But as of 2012 u.k. was at 63.6 million so even 600K isn't that many,
The u.s. 2014 was 318.3 million

 

[lehnerus2000]

IMO, considering how many industries supposedly exist in our modern economy, 1% - 1.6% is a large amount of the entire population.
Also, remember that the working population is significantly less than 100% of the entire population.

 

[SIW2]

It is about 3.5-4.0% of the working population.

Can't think of any other job with that percentage.

That is just call centres. Plenty of other back rooms using real pcs as well.

 

[sygnus21]

LOL - I was doing the same

That said, I do agree with Kari's and John's overall sentiment that 8 isn't that bad. Been using it straight out of the box - 8/8.1 without issue.

Now I'll go back to eating my popcorn and watching the show. Out

 

[Boozad]

Because most u.s.a. and u.k... for that matter jobs are being outsourced so these cubicles are not there anymore

I'll take our company as an example again there Mike. Since we were bought out by UTC they have closed two plants in the UK, the majority of PC abound jobs have been moved to our site whereas the machining jobs were outsourced to Indonisia and Poland. Of the 100 people they made redundant, over 60% were manual workers.

 

[jimbo45]

+1. to Boozad

The number of purely deskbound people sitting in those 1960's style of "tiny cubes" in an office is definitely rapidly diminishing

Where's the evidence for this? In the company I work for I can guarantee there are thousands of people working in that exact environment, and any other Aerospace or automotive company. And call centers, and distribution companies, and God knows how many other businesses. None of them need a mobile device as they're all still deskbound, they're not going to be sitting in a windy, wet field with a Surface Pro.

Hi there

In the Automotive industries things like "Self Billing" are in use more and more requiring less and less actual Back end support -- also automated warehousing, shop floor papers (also in Aero space industries), engine maintenance schedules etc etc -"rotables" for aircraft parts -- every piece of an aircraft has a specific time before it has to be replaced - etc etc. Using a mobile device for checking the hours of a particular part rather than paper which gets lost / badly filed etc is much more reliable. (Just watch some of the horror stories on Nat Geographic channel's Aircrash Investigation programs about sloppy maintenance procedures !!!!!).

Any sort of manufacturing these days has to deal with long complex supply chains to minimize the actual amount of stock you hold (that's cash tied up not earning money) and the algorithms can be incredibly complex. What about delivery driver schedules that need to be dynamically changed at a moments notice -- no good having someone sitting in a Lab Rat cubicle searching Google Maps !!!.

These type of Engineering solutions are generally done FAR MORE with a Mobile device (don't forget that the mobile devices I'm talking about CAN function as a laptop too when needed -- with an i5 / i7 processor they are just as powerful.

Call centres etc are not a HUGE part of the IT business any more - although a lot of people work in them - the business model is essentially very simple- and these are HATED both by the people who work in them and above all by their users - so I think the whole basic Call centre idea is probably heading towards extinction -- Internet direct Chat is proving much more popular and of course it lends people to working at home / remotely rather than in big huge offices filled by those Lab rat cage type cubicles.

I.T development is of course important -- these automated systems have to get built after all - but what my point is people usually TOTALLY underestimate the actual use of mobile equipment. A similar scenario -- looking at the number of Cars / trucks on the road in busy locations it would be easy to surmise that the majority of the worlds OIL supply is used for making Gasoline and diesel -- it's quite a SMALL percentage actually.

Even in a smallish distribution centre these days instead of a truck driver using "Lading Papers" can get out his tablet and bar scan the load into a reader at the security gate -- details of load, arrival time etc now loaded into the central computer without any paperwork (or chance of "fiddling it"). Scanners also check the pallets so any discrepancy can be noted immediately -- much better than to try and fix this 3 days later after all paperwork has been collected.

It's very easy for people working in a typical development deskbound I.T office to forget how much work is actually done AWAY from that environment -- most IT people in development probably have NEVER seen a real working Production (Engineering / Manufacturing) environment -- the sophistication of some of these automated warehouses together with the ordering / re-supply, product sourcing, pallet loading, high rack storage units, delivery reception and onward towards final customer probably lead you to believe you were on a Science Fiction movie set.

Mobile devices have really revolutionised all these processes and this will continue.

Even Stock trading -- I sometimes (part time as an amateur) trade Options on the US markets ( E*TRADE / Options Xpress) and having a decent mobile device is very convenienent - much more handy than a full blown laptop for making trades -- remember that in Iceland the US market starts at 13.30, and in the UK / Europe it's 14.30 / 15.30 so if I want to trade while travelling then a mobile device makes it possible. Many professional stock traders also trade away from a fixed desk too.

Note - the whole point of the thread was to say that any modern OS CANNOT ignore mobile devices / interfaces -- Ms has made a good start with Windows 8.1 (the original W8 was a mess we all agree but they fixed a lot with 8.1).

Windows 7 was designed for the desktop and it does that perfectly -- but it's not so good when the mobile bits are bolted on afterwards. An OS DESIGNED with mobile devices in mind is definitely the way of the future -- but if you want to remain totally deskbound until W7 EOL in say 2020 then that's your choice.

I'm glad though I've had a chance to work on some interesting Engineering projects using the new mobile technology.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Boozad]

In the Automotive industries things like "Self Billing" are in use more and more requiring less and less actual Back end support -- also automated warehousing, shop floor papers (also in Aero space industries), engine maintenance schedules etc etc -"rotables" for aircraft parts -- every piece of an aircraft has a specific time before it has to be replaced - etc etc. Any sort of manufacturing these days has to deal with long complex supply chains to minimize the actual amount of stock you hold (that's cash tied up not earning money) and the algorithms can be incredibly complex. What about delivery driver schedules that need to be dynamically changed at a moments notice -- no good having someone sitting in a Lab Rat cubicle searching Google Maps !!!.

Again, I'll ask where is the evidence for this? I work in an Aerospace company, possibly one of the largest ones in the world on a parts and systems supplier level and none of what is stated above applies from my own personal experience. Because of the complexity of the systems in place from strategic sourcing through to supply chain and procurement, logistics, engineering to fitting, testing and qualification to backend aftermarket support, there are no automated warehousing programs (SAP has to be manually edited) or 'self billing'. Engine maintenance schedules and all other sub systems are monitored by humans, some even still have paperwork packs that need manual checks on a regular basis and live with each individual unit for its life cycle.

Fact: There is nearly one module support desk confined employee (Indirect) to each fitter/machinist (Direct) in most departments at our place, in some departments the Indirects outnumber the Directs. On the whole across the whole site the Indirects outnumber the Directss 3:1.

Provide proof of what you're saying and I'll concede, but seeing as I work in the industry every single day and have first hand experience I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...Even in a smallish distribution centre these days instead of a truck driver using "Lading Papers" can get out his tablet and bar scan the load into a reader at the security gate -- details of load, arrival time etc now loaded into the central computer without any paperwork (or chance of "fiddling it"). Scanners also check the pallets so any discrepancy can be noted immediately -- much better than to try and fix this 3 days later after all paperwork has been collected...

That has been going on for decades. The scanners used are specialized equipment designed for the purpose, usually with proprietary software, including the OS (makes hacking harder). A tablet like the SP3 simply would not be able to handle the job nor hold up very long in use.

The initial data that get fed into those gizmos get created on, guess what? Son of a gun, desktop PCs, not tablets.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there

@Boozad

Try KLM maintenance in Amsterdam, OPEL in Germany, Schipol Airport procurement, ERIKS Alkmaar (NL), Azko Nobel , Elia (Belgian Electricity supplier - not retail etc.) I think these are all SAP users too -- and loads more. Then we have retail like the big supermarkets, B&Q etc. They deal with products that have short shelf life's so a lot of manual processing would be too slow.

Here's a company also who have a sophisticated logistics system probably right on your doorstep

http://www.hayesanderson.com/tibbett-britten/ukire.php

These are all big mobile / automated users. What about any users of the SAP EWM system (extended warehouse management) with RF devices etc etc. There's also the whole SAP MOBILE slew of applications if you want to discuss SAP !!!! SAP EWM is tailor made for a lot of automated functions.

I'm not saying EVERBODY is using them - but more and more will be.

Also I never said I like just plain tablets - I've often said they are a short term option -- but if you look at a surface pro 3 - what's the difference between that and a laptop in functionality -- I certainly can't see any difference other than the surface pro is lighter, much more portable, can be used in "tablet mode" if required, probably more powerful and certainly has an infinitely better screen resolution than a typical laptop. In an office I'd much rather use one of these with a nice large monitor than a typical works computer which is probably a few years old and runs as slow as molasses.

@ Lady Fitzgerald -- You've missed the point -- It's not ONLY MOBILE -- I keep saying -- although people can't seem to get it through their thick crania it's INTEGRATION WITH MOBILE devices that have to be allowed for -- Where in my whole selection of posts in this thread have I mentioned the desktop will disappear. All I have alluded to is that mobile devices will play an ever increasing role and a modern OS has to be designed to interface with those too.

Even in an automated warehouse you will have a standard computer for an operator to operate and manage the various processes -- it's the INTEGRATION with the remote / automatic devices that's important.

It actually doesn't matter what the mobile devices are, or whether they have software built in (like Windows embedded or Windows CE) but the OS must INTEGRATE with these more and more -- and that what's Ms is doing.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Boozad]

I don't want to discuss SAP (which has actually create more PC bound desk jobs at our company alone), I want to discuss the ever diminishing number of people working at desktop computers in Aerospace companies (as an example) worldwide due to automated procedures and the introduction of W8 on touch devices. I'm waiting for the concrete evidence which backs this claim up, but I don't think it's going to appear because it simply isn't true.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there

I never actually made Touch a priority -- my emphasis was on MOBILE devices -- although in some cases like the Engineers Malfunction report done out in the field a touch device was mentioned.

Taking the automated case of the Tibbet and Britten Logistics link in my previous post - one operator can control a lot of the processes taking place in the warehouse.

Before automation you'd need several teams of people sitting at "classical desktop terminals" to print out picking / packing / special instructions, pallet loading / unloading, stock location etc. All this data is now simply held on the bar codes / RF devices and can be handled quickly and efficiently with the minimum number of people.

I'm not getting into the usefulness or otherwise of tablets -- that wasn't my point AT ALL. Maybe as far as manufacturing is concerned the UK is fairly well down the league so it might not be using some of the more advanced processes seen in Germany, Belgium and Holland, however in these places at the sites mentioned there is a huge amount of automation and mobile computing done -- and while SAP does create more jobs in the short term (usually for consultancies like "Accenture" or Accidenture as we used to call them etc.) usually once the system has gone live the number of people then shrinks as the emphasis is on maintenance which in my experience is increasingly off shored to places like India (to people like Cap Gemini etc) but that's another story nfor another time.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Layback Bear]

I don't think anybody is arguing against portable computing devices or against stationary computing devices.
Their is room and need for both. Will one type of device run the other type of device obsolete; I don't think so.

Their is now and for the foreseeable future their will be a need for both types of computing methods.
It is not a take it or leave it method like Microsoft was pushing and now has to a degree wised up.
People want choices so they can pick and choose what methods of computing they need and desire. Most companies, governments, and individuals probably use both portable and stationary computing devices.
All these devices must be able to work and communicate with each other in most cases. They all don't have to look alike or work the same way; they have to communicate with each other.

In my opinion Microsoft tried the old Henry Ford trick with Windows 8.

Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black.

This idea was the dream child of corporate Microsoft at the time.
It didn't work for Henry Ford and it will not work for Microsoft for long.

People want choices and are fully capable of making them.
Today you can buy a red Ford truck and a green Ford car.

That is why in my opinion the Windows 8 is not doing well.
It started off as a take it or leave it (cram down our throats) operating system and it will not live down that reputation which is the reason in my opinion Windows 8xxx will be another Vista. If I remember correctly Vista is the roots of which became
Windows 7.
It really doesn't matter whether I, you, or my dead mother likes Windows 8. The only thing that matters to a corporation is sales.
Windows 7 sales prove what the masses prefer as a operating system.
Any sales increase like that would make any corporation very happy.

I do hope that Windows 9 will be more than changing the 7 or 8 to a 9.
I want and I think the world wants the good things in Windows 7 and 8 to be incorporated into Windows 9 plus more.

I do not think the corporate world that just changed from XP to Windows 7 and went through the learning curve and expense is looking for another operating system and won't be for a long time.
I do think that XP users that are still holding tight to XP will take a serious look at Windows 7 and 9 and then choose which suites their needs.
Many people on this forum will be able to use either system and tweak it to do most of what they want the way they want. Adjust and adapt I think is the way Clint Eastwood stated it.
The corporate world is looking at the cost of adjust and adapting when they have thousands of employes that need trained. They already know that new hardware will be needed and hopefully they made adjustments for that a long time ago.
Because of Windows 8 reputation whether gotten with facts or untruths doesn't matter. The reputation is there and will always be there.

Windows 8 will be put with the ugly aunt in the basement whether justly or not.

PS: I don't hate Windows 8. I just do see why I would stop using Windows 7.
I will take a serious look at Windows 9.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Foxit Reader (More)

It seems like the update glitch (I mentioned in post #171) was fixed in the last version (v6.2.0.0429).

I noticed that a Foxit Reader update was available (reported on filepuma.com).
When I tried the built-in updater, it successfully updated Foxit Reader (v6.2.1.0681).

It automatically re-installed Foxit Cloud though.