Restore from external SATA drive in enclosure with eSATA interface

[New7user7]

I am educating myself on backing up my disk as an image so that when my laptop drive has a problem, I don't spend 2 weeks re-establishing my environment. I'm not sure whether my question is related to the OS, the laptop, or the imaging SW (I am considering using Paragon or Macrium freeware as an alternative to the native imaging function).

Basically, I want to image on to an external SATA drive that is in an enclosure with an eSATA interface. If the resident drive becomes corrupted and unbootable, can I use the recovery disk to recover the iamge from the external SATA drive via the eSATA interface? I mean recover the image from the external drive and replicate it back onto the resident drive.

The thread http://www.sevenforums.com/backup-restore/43219-image-your-system-free-macrium-34.html seems to indicate that recoverability is related to the image/backup/recovery app, and I just wanted to make sure. Macrium seems to fit the requirements. However, postings at http://www.sevenforums.com/backup-restore/43219-image-your-system-free-macrium.html indicate that it isn't quite a clone, so it eliminates the option of taking the external SATA drive and dropping it into the laptop (if I should want to do that instead of an actual recovery).

 

[SmurofNeves]

You can always clone your HDD...

 

[New7user7]

Thanks, SmurofNeves. I didn't realize that cloning was different from creating an image. Now I'm googling to find the best freeware for cloning. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much of a distinction between cloning and imaging in app reviews. In any case, it will likely be either Macrium or Paragon.

 

[whs]

If you use Macrium now, you will most likely have Version 5. From there you can create the Windows PE disk which should work with eSata. I know that the Linux disk does not work with USB3, but eSata I have never tried.

Why don't you create a small 2GB test partition and experimant with that. I would try that for you but my laptop with the eSata port is currently "in transit".

Just be warned - when you create the Windows PE disk with Macrium, it will download Windows AIK, and that took 90 minutes here. It may be better to download that from the Microsoft site ahead of time and install it. Then you can point the Macrium CD creator to that .exe in your program files. This is not a lot faster in total, but more convenient. Plus if you download via Macrium, you may get a funny message that it cannot connect. In that case shut your AV network protection off. At least that has happened to me with NIS2011.

PS: make images of the partitions you want to protect. Do not get confused with cloning.

 

[New7user7]

Hello, WHS,

I'm wondering why I have to create another disk. Maybe I should have clarified that I am pursuing the cloning approach rather than imaging. I just have one partition (to my knowledge -- I haven't done any partition type things since buying the laptop new, and don't seek to have to deal with partitions unless absolutely necessary). The advantage of cloning is that if my HDD goes, I can just take the external 2.5" SATA out of its enclosure and drop it into the laptop. The housing for the external drive will have eSATA, so bandwidth won't be an issue (especially if I clone overnight).

 

[whs]

Well, this is a different philosophy. I ALWAYS seperate the data from the system into another partition. That is a lot safer - I think. Can't have enough protection layers. And then my OS is always on an SSD with little space. So I go with images for the OS, an occasional image for the data, else I sync it. But my main systems are desktops with multiple disks and acres of space. A laptop I use only occasionally for teaching classes. And there is nothing really important on it. There is no space. It has only one 90GB SSD.

 

[New7user7]

That makes a lot of sense in general. For my case, however, I want to own as little physical stuff as possible, and simplify recovery as much as possible. So it would be helpful if the external backup is also the HDD that replaces a dying HDD in the laptop (a simple drop-in). Otherwise, I would need media for images and have a separate HDD on the shelf to drop into the the laptop for recovery, or I'd have to run out and buy an HDD -- hard to surf around to get informed about doing these things if the only computer I own is in a coma. It's a tradeoff of pro's & cons, but I'm leaning toward simplicity of recovery and owning of minimal stuff.

 

[whs]

I understand. The dfference between lean and mean and a packrat - LOL.

 

[New7user7]

I did my web research on the best backup app before I was aware of the difference between cloning and creating images. Most of the info out there revolves around creation of images, so many free apps (Paragon, Macrium) were peferrable to Windows 7's native backup capability. However, now that the solution I'm aiming for involves cloning rather than creating images, I'm finding it hard to find reviews that discuss the preference of different software based on tradeoffs for cloning. In fact, I'm not even sure there are any cloning tradeoffs -- I imagine that it is a pretty simple operation, unlike the many options for image creation.

Is there any basis for choosing one cloning program or another? What would those tradeoffs be for you?

P.S. I realize that some people consider cloning to be a subset of imaging -- specifically, I have seen it described as a sector-by-sector image. The only reason I treat them as mutually exclusive is because I want to avoid the possibility of an approach that doesn't allow for a simple drop-in of the backup HDD into the laptop e.g. approaches that require other software on a recovery disk. I'm not sure if there is a high-fidelity sector-by-sector copy that requires this, but it's not what I'm looking for.

 

[HammerHead]

Clone

I am educating myself on backing up my disk as an image so that when my laptop drive has a problem, I don't spend 2 weeks re-establishing my environment. I'm not sure whether my question is related to the OS, the laptop, or the imaging SW (I am considering using Paragon or Macrium freeware as an alternative to the native imaging function).

Basically, I want to image on to an external SATA drive that is in an enclosure with an eSATA interface. If the resident drive becomes corrupted and unbootable, can I use the recovery disk to recover the iamge from the external SATA drive via the eSATA interface? I mean recover the image from the external drive and replicate it back onto the resident drive.

The thread http://www.sevenforums.com/backup-restore/43219-image-your-system-free-macrium-34.html seems to indicate that recoverability is related to the image/backup/recovery app, and I just wanted to make sure. Macrium seems to fit the requirements. However, postings at http://www.sevenforums.com/backup-restore/43219-image-your-system-free-macrium.html indicate that it isn't quite a clone, so it eliminates the option of taking the external SATA drive and dropping it into the laptop (if I should want to do that instead of an actual recovery).

You lost me when you said a Macrium image isn't quite a clone. I have cloned disks before and used them. But I find a really handy way is to make images and store them. When I have an upset I just restore the image to the same disk or another disk and they work fine. Macrium (free) is my pick of apps. You will need the WinPe disk for recovery (as mentioned in an earlier post). I store all my images on an esata disk and recover from there with no problem.

 

[whs]

HammerHead, He wants a bootable clone rather than a restorable image. The fine difference is that a clone can be used "as is" from the disc it is stored. An image has to be restored, requiring extra gear.

It is possible to boot from the VHD of an image. For that, however, you need a Windows edition higher than Home Premium. http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/625-boot-vhd-using-windows-7-a.html

 

[New7user7]

Hello, HammerHead,

I didn't quite say that Macrium image isn't quite a clone. The referenced forum group at this site explicitly says that Macrium creates images but not clones.

However, those postings are from 2009. If it is accurate, it means that all of your experience with cloning using Macrium should be within the last 2 years. Is that correct?

As I described, I'm really leaning toward the cloning solution rather than the imaging solution. I was interested in whether there are tradeoffs that would make one software preferrable to another (including the native Windows 7 backup capability) for such a (conceptually) simple operation like cloning (compared to the many options for image creation).

P.S. I just looked at Wikipedia's page for Disk Image, and it's take on the terms "image" and "clone" is the opposite of the gist that I get when web surfing. Wikipedia's "image" *is* a clone, while other means of backup up which doesn't yield an exact physical copy is an "archive". Lord, how the inconsistent proliferation of terminology can make for an interesting crossing of wires. I'd like to adhere to the current prevailing meaning that I get from web surfing. That is, clone differs from image in that it is a sector-by-sectore replica of the HDD (which is bootable, to boot), while image doesn't have to include the unused bytes.

 

[New7user7]

Hello, whs,

I'm unfamiliar enough with VMware that I'd like to stay with tried-and-true cloning methods for now. A backup isn't something I want to have uncertainty in. Also, from perusing the page for the link on booting from VHD, it seems you have to do it from Windows 7, which might not be accessible after an HDD corruption (correct me if I'm wrong). As well, the page warns that booting from VHD is still buggy. Finally, even though I have Win 7 Pro, it isn't high enough grade to boot from VHD (Pro is actually higher than I need -- I got it to access old apps via XP Mode, but it turns out that I don't need to).

 

[whs]

I think I understand what you are trying to do - a safe backup with the least gear and fastest recovery. I am sorry I threw in that VHD monkey wrench.

That gets me to another idea. It should be possible to define two identical primary partitions on the same drive. Install in partition A which will your active partition at that time and clone to Partition B. If your active system on A goes on the blink, deactivat A and activate B (e.g. with the bootable CD of Partition Wizard) and then boot from B.

But I really do not know whether the bootmgr will work. And, of course, it does not help if the HDD goes bust (which fortunately does not happen often). But for any other situation (system failure, Virus, etc.) it would be neat.

I have to try that one day. Have to find a system with a big enough HDD with the OS on it. All my systems run from small SSDs which would not have enough space for 2 partitions.

 

[New7user7]

Well, I have to admit, I'm brand spanking new to the partitioning game as well. It's a neat thing to explore and learn from, but for me, it has to be a potentially future undertaking. Though I might need to do so earlier than I hoped. The drive I'm looking at for cloning is a Seagate Momentus XT (high performance, SSD cache), but they only come in 500 & 750 GB. To clone my 640GB Toshiba HDD, I need to partition a 750GB Momentus (which is going for an obscene $250 because of the production problems in Thailand). I can then use the Momentus as my resident drive, and relegate the current Toshiba HDD to the external enclosure for backup cloning. Kind of wasteful for the extra cost (not that I ever expect to use more than 75-100GB anyways!).

As an alternative to wasting the top end of the 750GB, I looked around for lower-performance & capacity alternatives carried on the retail shelves in my city (I want to avoid paypal or ordering in general). There are WD Scorpio Blue 640GB with the same seek-times and 5400rpm as the current resident Toshiba HDD. They go for $160-175. However, they are usually the WD6400BPVT variant, which is lauded as "Advance Format" (4KB sectors). I'm not sure if the would cause a problem with cloning. I'm assuming that the Toshiba HDD has 512 byte sectors, since nothing comes up on a saerch for "MKxx65GSX MKxx76GSX advanced-format" (without quotes)

 

[whs]

If you only use 100GBs anyhow, I would buy a 120GB SSD which you can get for less than $200 and is 150 times faster than any HDD. I would transfer the current OS partition to there (there are several ways) and use that as my main disk. Then you can put your current HDD into the enclosure.

If that is an option, let us know and we will discuss the details.

 

[New7user7]

That is extremely tempting. To never again have to wait for disk access.

A few nonidealities come to mind. In Canada, they will range from $130 to $190: Canada Computers | Solid State Drives . (afternote: actually, this is exactly what you said -- less than $200). Might still be worth it, though it's only at a mulling stage for now.

A second factor is that I did some surfing on SSDs and got the impression that long-term stability of data is a problem. This is only from anecdotes posted on the web. However, the article Investigation: Is Your SSD More Reliable Than A Hard Drive? : SSD Reliability: Is Your Data Really Safe? seems to indicate that it isn't a simple thing to determine conclusively.

One thing that stands out is that SSD failures are abrupt compared to more graceful HDD failures. That means I better be very disciplined about backups, and I will certainly lose data after a failure, limited only by how frequently I clone to HDD. Abrupt failures might be regarded as a good thing, since gradual failures might propagate content corruption to my clone.

For the time being, I think I'll spectate on maturation of SSDs. Thanks for the suggestion, though. I'm sort of on the edge about this new take on things.

 

[whs]

1. The Canadian prices look good. When you are ready, let's select the right model. I did not see Crucial M4's which would be my number 1 pick for reliability - although I have 2 Intels and 3 OCZs that work very well - some since nearly 4 years. I never lost data. I found that my SSDs are more reliable than the spinners.

2. Don't go by anecdotal sayings. That comes mostely from people who have no own experience or do not know what they are doing. Remember the Vista badmouthing and the Mojave project. Many of the people on this forum have SSDs and they never want to look back. Have a look at this thread: http://www.sevenforums.com/hardware-devices/18229-show-us-your-ssd-performance.html

 

[New7user7]

Thanks, whs. Will mull it. Default way forward is to get conventional 512 bytes/sector drive for cloning. Currently surfing for alternative.

 

[New7user7]

Looks like Seagate has a new SmartAlign algorithm in their firmware to make their Advanced format HDD look like 512 bytes/sector. However, it's not clear what drives contain this algorithm. It relieves alignment problems between the OS & the HDD, but it isn't clear that it does so for cloning (either from the Momentus XL to a 512 bytes/sector HDD or vice-versa -- I'll be doing both).