Solved Thermal Paste Expired?

[charkzilla20]

So I put together the PC about a year and a half ago.
I recently got into overclocking, and wanted to re-apply thermal paste on the cpu to try and see if it would help temperatures.
I think I have a decent Haswell 4670k chip for overclocking, as earlier I was able to get a stable 4.7ghz overclock with a max temp of 75-80 in stress testing (never over 60 in gaming), and at a core voltage of 1.262v. (air cooled, push-pull hyper 212 evo, arctic mx-2)
Then a few weeks ago I went and put some fresh thermal paste on and now it's no longer stable at that clock.
And it's hotter than i've ever seen it. A 4.4ghz overclock will get up to 100c and start throttling down!

I re-applied the paste again today and found that most of the paste was bunched up on one side of the heatsink and cpu, so I tried to reinstall the heatsink more level so to create an even spread. But the temperatures aren't much improved.

I've noticed, that the heatsink doesn't get warm when the cpu is working under full load anymore. Before I could stick my hand in and feel how warm the heat sink is, but now the cpu will throttle at 100c and the heatsink will feel like room temperature.
This leads me to think there's some issue with the thermal paste drawing heat away from the cpu.

I have had this thermal paste since I made the machine almost 2 years ago. Should I get some new stuff? I'm planning to switch to a corsair h100i loop for fun...

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Hello charkzilla mate two things one the compound you have may have reached it's use by date ( I usually buy new whenever I re-compound chips of any sort. If you are going to keep the same cooler make sure the cooling fins are completely free of crud - one of those cheap hogs hair artists brushes (bristles as long as you can get them) is great for brushing between the fins - while blowing them through or vacuuming on the out side. If doubtful renew the fan/s or at least clean them and relubricate the bearings (sewing machine oil)- very little - is great..
That done use these for the compound and preparation.
Arctic Silver Incorporated - ArctiClean not that cheap and after the initial clean for which I use alcohol of some form or a citrus based oil - there are proprietary solutions available - the preparation solution is used - then the compound applied and I do this by smearing a thin layer (using a vinyl glove) over both surfaces to each edge and the placing a rice grain sized piece of compound in the middle of the CPU and then fix down EVENLY which is something I feel went wrong when you did it the last time because of the uneven spread. Artic Silver contains elemental silver the best thermal conductor known.

The other option is of course a liquid cool - I have taken to using them because they are quieter and more efficient. The above process is still applicable.

 

[charkzilla20]

Hello charkzilla mate two things one the compound you have may have reached it's use by date ( I usually buy new whenever I re-compound chips of any sort. If you are going to keep the same cooler make sure the cooling fins are completely free of crud - one of those cheap hogs hair artists brushes (bristles as long as you can get them) is great for brushing between the fins - while blowing them through or vacuuming on the out side. If doubtful renew the fan/s or at least clean them and relubricate the bearings (sewing machine oil)- very little - is great..
That done use these for the compound and preparation.
Arctic Silver Incorporated - ArctiClean not that cheap and after the initial clean for which I use alcohol of some form or a citrus based oil - there are proprietary solutions available - the preparation solution is used - then the compound applied and I do this by smearing a thin layer (using a vinyl glove) over both surfaces to each edge and the placing a rice grain sized piece of compound in the middle of the CPU and then fix down EVENLY which is something I feel went wrong when you did it the last time because of the uneven spread. Artic Silver contains elemental silver the best thermal conductor known.

The other option is of course a liquid cool - I have taken to using them because they are quieter and more efficient. The above process is still applicable.

Thanks for your advice. I am also looking to liquid cool. I think having a chip 4.7 stable at 1.26v is worth pushing XD

I'm just wondering if it's worth thinking about how the heatsink was cool when the cpu was very hot...

 

[carwiz]

None is better than too much. Sounds like you're applying too much paste if it's oozing to the sides. The purpose of the paste is to fill pores and microscopic voids not insulate. It should appear transparent when applied. Spread it with credit card or similar. Make sure NONE has contacted the motherboard traces or any of the CPU/socket connections.

Also - Be sure to clean both contact surfaces before applying new paste and watch for hair or dust. These can create a void and cause overheating.

 

[charkzilla20]

None is better than too much. Sounds like you're applying too much paste if it's oozing to the sides. The purpose of the paste is to fill pores and microscopic voids not insulate. It should appear transparent when applied. Spread it with credit card or similar. Make sure NONE has contacted the motherboard traces or any of the CPU/socket connections.

Also - Be sure to clean both contact surfaces before applying new paste and watch for hair or dust. These can create a void and cause overheating.

yes thanks. i'll try less, but it was never "oozing to the sides". It was simply squished to one side as if the heatsink was put with one edge down first. I'll reapply and see how the temps are tomorrow.

 

[ignatzatsonic]

And it's hotter than i've ever seen it. A 4.4ghz overclock will get up to 100c and start throttling down..............I've noticed, that the heatsink doesn't get warm when the cpu is working under full load anymore.

Those 2 statements lead me to think that the heat is simply not being transferred properly to the cooling and its fins.

Irrespective of the paste.

I have not heard of paste going bad in that short of a time.

And I would not expect bad paste or a bad paste application to make a huge difference. Some, but not huge.

I'd be more inclined to think that you are not mounting the cooler properly.

Are you using those god-forsaken pushpins from Intel?

It's easy to get only 3 of the 4 corners locked down, which would be a major problem. It isn't easy to confirm proper mounting if you have not removed the motherboard and turned it upside down to look with your own eyes to see if the pins all protrude through the mounting holes by the same amount.

 

[AddRAM]

Can you fit a 280 MM radiator ?

This is a great AOI liquid cooler.

But the radiator is actually 322 mm.

Hydro Series™ H110i GT 280mm Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Yes mate well what the others are saying is just reflecting what I advised you and everyone will have their own preference for applying the compound but I still think my gloved finger is more exact as you get little to no overflow as the warmth from your finger makes spreading it very easy and the Arctic kit is by far and away the best stuff to use.

In future too you will need to keep a regular check on the temps and the crud build up in the radiator fins even if you do go liquid which again I said I preferred. Just as matter of doing that be very careful when fitting the back plate for the cooler pick up head as I stripped out the board (cracked) on one of my machines by over tightening.

 

[charkzilla20]

And it's hotter than i've ever seen it. A 4.4ghz overclock will get up to 100c and start throttling down..............I've noticed, that the heatsink doesn't get warm when the cpu is working under full load anymore.

Those 2 statements lead me to think that the heat is simply not being transferred properly to the cooling and its fins.

Irrespective of the paste.

I have not heard of paste going bad in that short of a time.

And I would not expect bad paste or a bad paste application to make a huge difference. Some, but not huge.

I'd be more inclined to think that you are not mounting the cooler properly.

Are you using those god-forsaken pushpins from Intel?

It's easy to get only 3 of the 4 corners locked down, which would be a major problem. It isn't easy to confirm proper mounting if you have not removed the motherboard and turned it upside down to look with your own eyes to see if the pins all protrude through the mounting holes by the same amount.

It's a CM hyper 212 evo, and it's pretty easy to install, but I'll do some searching and see if I'm doing something blatantly wrong. I don't think I am, though.
Paste on (dot), Place heatsink carefully over it, screw it down to the bracket in star pattern. The Bracket piece is already set for my socket (lga1150), and only fits in one way...

Can you fit a 280 MM radiator ?

This is a great AOI liquid cooler.

But the radiator is actually 322 mm.

Hydro Seriesâ„¢ H110i GT 280mm Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler

I could probably stuff a rad that big in the front of the case (cm haf 922). It definitely won't fit on top, but a 240mm radiator would fit on top.

Yes mate well what the others are saying is just reflecting what I advised you and everyone will have their own preference for applying the compound but I still think my gloved finger is more exact as you get little to no overflow as the warmth from your finger makes spreading it very easy and the Arctic kit is by far and away the best stuff to use.

In future too you will need to keep a regular check on the temps and the crud build up in the radiator fins even if you do go liquid which again I said I preferred. Just as matter of doing that be very careful when fitting the back plate for the cooler pick up head as I stripped out the board (cracked) on one of my machines by over tightening.

I'll see if a local store carries some Arctic paste. Is there a specific arctic paste everyone loves?
I have always kept eyes on temps and dust. I think more than what's healthy for a person :/

So how snug should the backplate be? Under the screws on the front show a little wear on the board. I'll show pictures in a bit.

 

[ignatzatsonic]

I'll see if a local store carries some Arctic paste. Is there a specific arctic paste everyone loves?
I have always kept eyes on temps and dust. I think more than what's healthy for a person :/

So how snug should the backplate be? Under the screws on the front show a little wear on the board. I'll show pictures in a bit.

Every test I've ever seen shows only minor differences among pastes--typically 2 or 3 degrees. I used Arctic Silver 5 for a long time and have recently moved to Noctua's paste, but only because it came free with a Noctua cooler.

There are tests out there of some goofy stuff used as paste---mayonnaise, etc.

Lots of hand-wringing and fetishism about pastes, generally overblown and not subject to a lot of reason. Common among over-clockers.

If you use Arctic, you might go to their web site and see what application method they recommend for your particular processor. Sometimes it's a dot, sometimes it's a thin line, etc, depending on your exact model. I doubt if it's critical.

If I recall, they recommended a thin line on Intel Core 2 Duo processors. I think they recommend more of a dot on Intel i5s and i7s, but I haven't looked.

When you remove the cooler after some use, you're going to see an inkblot of some type, but I wouldn't draw any radical conclusions from it unless it was extremely peculiar. There's too many unknown variables related to the microscopic peculiarities of the two mated surfaces and the mounting pressure and technique.

 

[Layback Bear]

I like Arctic 5. Used it for years and still do.

Here are some instructions from Arctic 5.

http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appmeth/int/vl/intel_app_method_vertical_line_v1.1.pdf

 

[GokAy]

I am not sure if this would help you but whenever I do some screwing, I don't screw one to full tightness but rather go in turns, move from one to its diagonal etc.

 

[ICIT2LOL]

As previous reply I use Artic 5 and I find the preparation solution a must - but that is me being pedantic.

Now I stated I use a vinyl glove and that is because then I know the compound is even though very thin is right to the edges of the CPU and the cooler plate/s. Some advocate just putting a dot of compound in the centre of the CPU and let it "bleed" out but I have pulled quite a few off where this has been done and the coverage is well pathetic to say the least.

The important things are that the plates are absolutely clean (old compound can be quite hardened so is why I use a citrus oil base solvent to clean first) / coverage is even / not too much applied (some of the older and AMD CPU's have pins and getting compound into them is a nightmare to clean out / and that the fixing of the cooler is done evenly. I have heads some say it takes so many hours for the compound to "bleed" evenly between the two surfaces and that may be true in some cases - again which is why I spread the compound thinly first.

But you must do whatever you think best - it's your machine eh?

 

[charkzilla20]

When you remove the cooler after some use, you're going to see an inkblot of some type, but I wouldn't draw any radical conclusions from it unless it was extremely peculiar. There's too many unknown variables related to the microscopic peculiarities of the two mated surfaces and the mounting pressure and technique.

The paste was all bunched up on one side and separated and clumpy...

I ended up going with the Arctic 5, and I also binged and got a h100i gtx . It's VERY quiet.
With that installed (testing without arctic paste, stock paste only), I'm seeing some nice temps on 4.6ghz overclock (mid 60s) running prime95 blend test after a half hour, except when the test switches to "test 2, 3200000 Lucas-Lehmer iterations of m163839 using FMA3 FFT length 8k, pass1=128, pass2=64" the whole cpu ramps up to high 80s for a minute. Then after it's finished that section, it goes back down to 60s...
Is that bad?
In comparison, stock 3.6ghz (3.4 with 3.8 boost = 3.6 for all four) on the old air cooler averaged mid 70s for the same test. So I'm gaining a full 1.0ghz and dropping 10c with the water

I notice the cooler keeps a temperature of 33 degrees or less, and so when I stop p95, the core temp jumps back to 30 instantly. I think that's good, no?

I am not sure if this would help you but whenever I do some screwing, I don't screw one to full tightness but rather go in turns, move from one to its diagonal etc.

Star-pattern, yes, I do that, thanks.

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Yep another good way of getting the temp is to get one of those infra red temperature "guns" just aim the red laser spot at the surface you need to test and it gives it immediately.

It may be a little over the top for some but I like it and they are reasonably cheap, and you can check the temp of anything really doesn't have to be in a computer. For example before I changed a light globe I check the temp to see how hot it is if it has been running, the temp of any surface I want to touch, food, my fish tank water etc .
The one in the pic gives a good idea of what it looks like and they range from $10 - $30.

 

[ignatzatsonic]

see comments in bold:

I'm seeing some nice temps on 4.6ghz overclock (mid 60s) running prime95 blend test after a half hour, except when the test switches to "test 2, 3200000 Lucas-Lehmer iterations of m163839 using FMA3 FFT length 8k, pass1=128, pass2=64" the whole cpu ramps up to high 80s for a minute. Then after it's finished that section, it goes back down to 60s...
Is that bad?

Hmmm......... I'm wondering about the 1 minute in the 80s. I've never noticed anything like that, but I'm not expert on Prime 95.

I ran Prime 95, blend, in place large, and small ffts a month or so ago. In my case, all 3 tests peaked at 67 for the hottest of the 4 cores. I ran all 3 tests for 20 minutes, not a half hour. I've heard it said that small ffts normally results in the highest temps, but it did not for me.

I wouldn't worry about a minute in the 80s. I assume you saw no throttling.

I've also heard that recent versions of Prime 95 put an unrealistic stress on the CPU and that something like Intel Extreme Tuning Utility (aka XTU) or OCCT are more realistic of what you might encounter in real world use.


Here's the quote:

"The latest Intel CPUs feature the AVX instruction. Prime 95 27.7 and newer versions supports the AVX instruction which results in a higher load and core temperature. This will result in a lower overclockability, but a higher stability. However, almost no program or game can handle the AVX instruction. If you’re not using anything which features AVX, you can use Prime 95 26.6 without AVX so you might reach higher clocks."

Maybe the 80 plus temps were caused by the AVX instruction?



In comparison, stock 3.6ghz (3.4 with 3.8 boost = 3.6 for all four) on the old air cooler averaged mid 70s for the same test. So I'm gaining a full 1.0ghz and dropping 10c with the water

Did you see a similar 1 minute jump to a much higher temp with the air cooler, just as you did on the new cooler? Did you use the same version of Prime 95?

I notice the cooler keeps a temperature of 33 degrees or less, and so when I stop p95, the core temp jumps back to 30 instantly. I think that's good, no?

Back to 30 instantly? That's not seen on air cooling, but you're on liquid. May be normal for liquid; I've never used it. Air coolers will drop back to normal in a few minutes, but will drop SOME near instantly.

 

[charkzilla20]

Did you see a similar 1 minute jump to a much higher temp with the air cooler, just as you did on the new cooler? Did you use the same version of Prime 95?

[/QUOTE]


Your whole post was very informative. Thanks a lot

Yes, p95 was spiking on one or two particular tests in a stress test up to 90s or so, even 100 in some cases, and i had throttling down for the first time ever. cooked me an egg while doing so.

Lightbulb:
I had a drive crap out on me a month ago, so I had to reinstall p95. I got the latest version, which I think uses the AVX instruction i didn't have before. With a new drive, I also changed the thermal paste. I think the p95 update made me think the paste was not working. I still enjoy the cooler though

Thanks for your help, again

Yep another good way of getting the temp is to get one of those infra red temperature "guns" just aim the red laser spot at the surface you need to test and it gives it immediately.

It may be a little over the top for some but I like it and they are reasonably cheap, and you can check the temp of anything really doesn't have to be in a computer. For example before I changed a light globe I check the temp to see how hot it is if it has been running, the temp of any surface I want to touch, food, my fish tank water etc .
The one in the pic gives a good idea of what it looks like and they range from $10 - $30.

OOh i've always wanted one of those. I think i'll just get one anyway XD

 

[carwiz]

I've got a temp-gun similar to that but not in that gaudy yellow. It can be powered by USB (to save batteries) and locked on to record High, Low and Average over a long period. It will attach to a standard camera tripod so you don't have to hold it.

I've been using it for plating and automotive engine or A/C work. Never dawned on me to use it on a PC. Great idea!

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Yep carwiz mate I use it all the time like I said for the fish tank especially and yep my one is yellow like the pic only cos it was the first one I came across that I could afford at the time

 

[charkzilla20]

So long story short, the new h100igtx is fantastic! I'm doing the final stability tweaks on a 4.7ghz overclock (1.28v) on my 4670k and XTU tests will never go above 70c. And the best part is that it is VERY QUIET. The "corsair link" software is really funky though, and I can't really use it, it's so broken. But once it's set, it works.

I'll be de-lidding my cpu and replacing the IHS thermal compound with some of that fancy Liquid Metal stuff. That's another project though. Maybe sometime this summer. Gotta get a job first XD lol.

And with that, cpu cooling stuff seems good for now.

Thanks for your help everyone.

P.S. I'm gonna get one of those temp guns. They look fun. XD