Win 7 Ultimate scheduled Restore size is getting huge!

[laserscottman]

Hello Friends, This query is concerning how Win 7 Ultimate Scheduled Backup works.
These are my needs:
Often in the past, Win7 has become unstable in some way, such that different pgms including Windows Explorer, and other system tools become corrupt. I decide to re-install Win 7 Ultimate 32bit.

I have an external 500Gb drive with an Acronis True Image Home 2009 full partition backup on it. The backup is a fully updated, fully game installed backup, and is way faster to use compared to the individual software installations. Since win7 starts acting up about every 3-6 months for me, I replace it. But:

Recently (last restore) I decided to let win Backup and Restore do a scheduled backup every 7 days. I let Win choose what to backup. I intend to let Win be THE backup to use to replace the OS when needed. I have always had problems running out of space where to let Win Backup to on some drives, so I dedicated a 443Gb partition to Backup only. This is on the other half of a 1Tb drive. (I know in some cases it is not wise to use the same drive, but I put all the important things on another physical drive) I have 4 drives, totaling about 3.8Tb. 2 have XP Pro, and 2 have Win7 Ultimate. The main C: is 487Gb, with 231Gb used space. The other half of it is N: 443Gb; on which the Backup is written to each week. The size of the backup is now 407.12Gb. The backup on N: is approaching TWICE the size of the used space on the C: drive! And within about a month there will be no more room.

I want mainly to retain a pristine Operating System to reload, along with the basic games which are huge. This will save the time WHEN, not IF win7 begins to fail again. (not saying it is a bad or weak OS, just that it fails for me for reasons needing replacement. If only it were as robust as XP has been in the past.) So:

1. How can I retain a PERFECT OS and games image to use as a basic unchanged original with Win Backup?

2. As Win gets corrupted, how can I know that the latest Backup I might want to restore from isn't corrupt?

3. Can Backup be set to not make redundant Backups that become so huge, yet maintain the original perfect OS and game set, such as a dated incremental backup that can be used to piece together a C: drive again?

4. How do I know that Backup isn't backing-up malware?

5. If I save the latest backup, and the first one, how big should each one actually be?

6. Can I get into the actual backup files individually to decide if I want to restore from them--the options are limited.

7. Win says that it will work "without taking up more than 30 percent of space on the backup disk". Out of a 443Gb drive letter, there is only 33Gb of space left. All done automatically.

8. Is the fact that there is a total of 4 OS's on this computer making the Backups so large? I would assume it is only doing the C: drive, as I would wish, yet something is getting copied over and over, likely. Again, possibility of the latest backup being corrupted is on my mind.

Short of cloning a new disk to replace the later corrupt one, updating it just prior to copying it over, the only other thing I can see doing is to only run the OS on the C: drive, making it easier to replace, yet that has many inherent problems with pgms not working after the OS is replaced, and needing to reinstall anyway.

Sorry about the length of this inquiry, but you can see I need assistance. Thanks for the professional correct answers in advance! I know it is time consuming. But If I am clear about my needs, maybe all can be taken care of by a particular method of doing it all at once. Thank you. Scott. Please notify my email of an answer?

 

[ignatzatsonic]

A few points:

You can assume that any image of a corrupt Windows installation is itself corrupt.

Likewise for an image of a malware-infected Windows.

You might find that backup programs such as Macrium and Acronis are more flexible and understandable.

Macrium images are roughly half the size of the occupied space on the partitions contained in the image. For instance--if you have a 400 GB partition with 300 occupied, the image would be roughly 150 using standard compression. Smaller if you choose a higher compression level.

You can extract individual files from Macrium images. I don't know if this can be done with Windows imaging.

I think the Windows backup tool has its own notion of what must be included in an image--and you have little control over that. That might explain the size of your images. Other imaging programs give you more control.

Lastly--if you are having continual corruption issues, I'd guess you either have hardware issues or are doing something wrong. That isn't the standard experience with Windows 7.

The only way to have an uncorrupted image backup would be to begin with an uncorrupted Windows installation---that might require a clean install in your case.

 

[laserscottman]

Thanks, ignatzatsonic-- I will try the Macrium pgm you suggest, as Acronis is not so easy unless hours are spent figuring out how to do what I want done. It is hard to find it listed exactly what I want--the process is hidden inside unknown titles, etc. But it may be easier with an updated version of that software! Acronis is difficult for me. Thanks.
What might you think of just getting an identical drive, and only connecting it to clone to the C: drive, and updates? I'm not so much in need of backups as in replacing the OS.
The OS gets nailed by malware sometimes, and breaks portions of Win--especially restore, and virus updates. Also Explorer, and other system functions. That's when I won't put up with it anymore. I have AVG, and do a lot of time on the internet; emails have problems sometimes.

 

[karlsnooks]

I have zero problems with Win 7 Backup and Restore and I've been using same from before the RTM of Win7.

Now let's get to some practicalities.

Never put a backup onto the same physical drive.

Think about it. If the hard disk goes south, then there goes your backup.

Next, Win7 backup has two basic capabilites: 1. to make a sytem image backup of your system, 2. to make periodic backups of your folders.

Win 7 Backup and Restore is strong in the area of system image backup.

Win 7 backup and restore is weak, although sound, in the area of functioning as a backup of your data files.

I use Win 7 Backup and Restore for system image backup.

For my needs, a weekly system image backup is more than sufficient. I do not need to backup my data files. Why? Win 7 system image backup creates VHD files. If I need to recover a data file, I simply mount the vhd and extract the file. I also use SkyDrive to backup my data files.

I suggest to everyone that they investigate the vastly, vastly improved SkyDrive. SkyDrive has many other advantages. Nice to know that I can access the files from anywhere and that they are kept in sync automatically by SkyDrive.

 

[karlsnooks]

And yes,, you can access, as I mentioned, and extract individual files from a system image backup.
And yes, you can specify what you want backed up.
And yes, you can specify when.

Personally, I don't schedule the system image backups but rather run them at a time when the background image backup will not slow down anything else. One thing nice about Win 7 Backup and Restore is that you can continue with your normal computer usage while the system image backup is being made. I try to avoid doing such but seems that I end up doing such frequently.

 

[mjf]

If you include an image with your scheduled backup then difference images will be made each time and stored in shadow storage space. I consider this a risky business and can consume lots of HDD space. I would use the "let me choose" option and untick the create a system image box. Then use the separate "create a system image" box to periodically make images. More tips here
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/663-backup-complete-computer-create-image-backup.html

I also use free Macrium. It is very reliable and highly regarded.

 

[karlsnooks]

I never mix the two.

Use Win 7 backup and restore for system images (from which I can always extract any file).

I use SkyDrive for data backup with sync and access anywhere that i can access the internet.

 

[mjf]

I think it is safe practice to have images from 2 different imaging programs. One may let you down. Even though I have never had a problem with Windows imaging others have experienced problems. Macrium is more flexible and having the two in your tool kit isn't a bad idea IMO.

 

[kado897]

I use SkyDrive for data backup with sync and access anywhere that i can access the internet.

Skydrive with Sync is a poor choice for data backup. The reason is that any corrupted or deleted file is immediately synced with no opportunity to stop or reverse that. SkyDrive does not even have a recycle bin.

 

[karlsnooks]

Our numbers are legion and increasing daily.

 

[kado897]

I use SkyDrive with sync myself but not as a backup. I do that separately with FreeFileSync to a local hard drive using mirroring with versions scheduled to run daily.

 

[Victor S]

There are some things you have to decide.
1. What you want to back up to an image.
You've said you want your OS's and games backed up. If they are on one partition, that's already defined. I don't multi-OS, so if they are on more than one partition, just add the partitions they are on to the definition.

2. The purpose of your backup images.
You've said you want your "pristine" OS preserved, so you can restore it. You should know that scheduling the Win 7 backup will produce a series of incremental
backups. For example, the first backup will show as a dated image in the Win 7 restore screen, then each subsequent image will show as another entry.
Selecting the latest entry will restore everything that has been imaged to date.
Including anything that has corrupted your "pristine" image.
You'll really be in a guessing game as to which of the scheduled images is really "pristine," except for the first and oldest image.
I recommend you use a non-Win7 imaging product to do a stand-alone portable image of the pristine backup. Besides incrementals not being suited to your main goal, Win7 incremental backups fail the portability test.
If you move your Win7 images to a different drive from the one on which they were created, you will only be able to restore the last created image. It is the the only image that will show up when you run restore. That was my experience when I first tested Win7 imaging a couple years ago. If somebody here can dispute that, I would welcome the correction.

3. Reality.
There is no "perfect" backup strategy. Strategy had to be determined by your needs, and fully automating imaging will only work if it meets your needs.
It is often easier to manually perform a list of operations than to automate, and that can much more easily be tailored to fit your needs.

4. Do you know your data?
From what you've said, you are willing to restore to a "pristine" image.
That's what I do, so I can feel it. But before I restore to the pristine image, I pause and consider what I'll overlay on the partition being restored.
In your case, savegame data should be moved, and whatever else you don't want to lose. If I kept more data I "can't" lose on the restored partition, I'd write a checklist to go through before a restore. I don't need that, but you might consider it. After the restore of the pristine image, part of your procedure should be to download all updates the image is lacking (eg, AVG,) do any tweaking you've just erased by doing the restore, install/reinstall any programs you want added to your pristine image, then MAKE ANOTHER IMAGE. You don't want to constantly reinvent the wheel.

5. Back to reality again.
If you want imaging to work for you, you have to test it until it becomes second nature. I use Ghost 15. You mentioned you have Acronis. Learn it. Test your images. A good practice would be to swap your system drive for an empty one before doing your first restore of an image. If something goes wrong, you can just put your system drive back in.
Personally, I think you're going about it in the wrong way by imaging games.
If you keep your system partition small, imaging is faster and simpler.
My images hover around 20gb, and take about 5 minutes to image or restore.
My games, including Steam, are on a different drive. I don't even back them up, since they can be reinstalled quickly. But that's your call, and goes to your purpose.
Just give it some though to come up with a strategy that works for you.
BTW, when I make an image, I make two, to different drives. Reality says you
can have hardware failure.

 

[laserscottman]

If you include an image with your scheduled backup then difference images will be made each time and stored in shadow storage space. I consider this a risky business and can consume lots of HDD space. I would use the "let me choose" option and untick the create a system image box. Then use the separate "create a system image" box to periodically make images. More tips here
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/663-backup-complete-computer-create-image-backup.html

I also use free Macrium. It is very reliable and highly regarded.

Thanks, all. My concerns were for the size of the backup area beginning to fill the drive. Soon it will no longer work, and give an error msg, like "not enough space for backup". As I said, I put things I don't want to lose on a separate drive. I am NOT concerned with drive failure, so I DO use the large area of the other half of the main drive for backups. Seems the only place available with the other drives being used for storage, etc. I will try to locate the first System Image, but don't think I will be able to, as only 2 backup periods exist, and the first one is a time period of nearly 2 months. That would have nearly 8 backups, none of which could be individually accessed or chosen. (system images).
In the WindowsImageBackup folder, it seems only the latest 'dated' backup is listed (Backup 2012-05-07 000022) and it is 209Gb. There are several .xml files, and two .vhd files (one is 209Gb) Is this the one that is the main system, or all the data, or both?
I might not be bright enough to already understand it all, but I need to in order to make things right. Perhaps I should turn off automatic backups as suggested; I don't keep anything indispensable on C: due to it's needing to be reloaded severally per year. I suppose I have not been the most careful OS operator, and have incurred problems "given" to me by malware writers. Again, this comes from the internet and email, for which I use AVG and Mbam and other scan pgms.
Though it is not 'recommended' , I am not concerned about the backups being stored on the main drive, only that they are nearly doubling in size compared to the C: used space.

*Need to replace Win7 often.
*Want fastest vs cleanest way to do so.
*Simplicity is preferred, even if unorthodox.
*I don't mind 'some' extra work, but won't do the whole thing from scratch.
*These are my needs, and it is what it is.
Thanks for your suggestions, Friends!

 

[karlsnooks]

I repeat:
Put your backups on another PHYSICAL drive be it internal or external.

2nd. Remove all of your anti-malware programs
3rd. Install Microsoft Security Essential, MSE (link in my signature).

 

[Victor S]

In the WindowsImageBackup folder, it seems only the latest 'dated' backup is listed (Backup 2012-05-07 000022) and it is 209Gb. There are several .xml files, and two .vhd files (one is 209Gb) Is this the one that is the main system, or all the data, or both?

*Need to replace Win7 often.
*Want fastest vs cleanest way to do so.
*Simplicity is preferred, even if unorthodox.
*I don't mind 'some' extra work, but won't do the whole thing from scratch.
*These are my needs, and it is what it is.
Thanks for your suggestions, Friends!

I don't have Win7 images on my PC any more, but as I recall you have to go into Backup and Recovery (either in Win 7 or with the recovery CD) to browse the individual images, not use Explorer to look at the file folder.
Look around in Backup and Restore, and if you haven't moved the image folder around, Win7 should show you every image you created. It wiil say something like "Browse Images."
If you restore the oldest, which should also be the smallest, you'll be back to when you created the first image.
The facility in Win 7 allows you delete images, so you should look at that and understand it.
Then, if your restore is good and you want simply as you say above, delete all the images except the oldest one you just restored. Deleting those incrementals should free up space.
Don't do any more images, unless you want a new one as your "pristine" restore point. And if you're sure you want the new image, and want to save as much space as possible, delete all images before you make the new one.

 

[kado897]

The previous backups are incremental and are held in shadow storage so you won't see them.

 

[laserscottman]

I repeat:
Put your backups on another PHYSICAL drive be it internal or external.

2nd. Remove all of your anti-malware programs
3rd. Install Microsoft Security Essential, MSE (link in my signature).

Well gee whiz, Karl--No thanks to all of it. None of what you suggest deals directly with my needs. You can have it your way on YOUR system, but thanks for the suggestions.

 

[laserscottman]

There are some things you have to decide.
1. What you want to back up to an image.

2. The purpose of your backup images.

3. Reality.

4. Do you know your data?
After the restore of the pristine image, part of your procedure should be to download all updates the image is lacking (eg, AVG,) do any tweaking you've just erased by doing the restore, install/reinstall any programs you want added to your pristine image, then MAKE ANOTHER IMAGE. You don't want to constantly reinvent the wheel.

5. Back to reality again.
Personally, I think you're going about it in the wrong way by imaging games.
If you keep your system partition small, imaging is faster and simpler.
My images hover around 20gb, and take about 5 minutes to image or restore.
My games, including Steam, are on a different drive. I don't even back them up, since they can be reinstalled quickly. But that's your call, and goes to your purpose.
Just give it some though to come up with a strategy that works for you.
BTW, when I make an image, I make two, to different drives. Reality says you
can have hardware failure.

Thanks, Victor S--I've found your replies to be most useful!
1. The system and the games are closely tied together if on the C: drive, and they do take too long of a time to image.
2. Understanding the incremental backups and the possibility of malware following, I think it will be best to just make one backup and not schedule them anymore.
3. I've had enough of automation; it is not what I need, and will now just do what is necessary manually.
4. I have done the updates subsequent to the restore every time I needed to restore or reload clean. Sometimes this has required the full game to be reinstalled again--defeating the purpose. THEN MAKE ANOTHER IMAGE That's great advice!
5. Yes, the strategy...Your suggestions to NOT have Steam and games on the C: drive--I have not tried that, but should, since it is the biggest reason I don't want to do a clean install each time--with having to load those games and updates--it takes more than a day and ties-up things in downloads. I'm hoping the games will work right when they are on another drive, and the C: is reloaded. I have had endless issues before, and had to reinstall them again often. Usually the shortcuts for sure, but "Install" to another drive requires an OS on that drive doesn't it?

I'd like to get back to the days when Acronis really DID take only 5 min to reinstall the C: partition! Last time it was over 8hrs, THEN came all the updates. I want to explore having another drive for games, which is what my other Win7 drive was intended for, but I don't use it or boot from it very often. Again, thanks for the help!

Scott.

 

[Victor S]

5. Yes, the strategy...Your suggestions to NOT have Steam and games on the C: drive--I have not tried that, but should, since it is the biggest reason I don't want to do a clean install each time--with having to load those games and updates--it takes more than a day and ties-up things in downloads. I'm hoping the games will work right when they are on another drive, and the C: is reloaded. I have had endless issues before, and had to reinstall them again often. Usually the shortcuts for sure, but "Install" to another drive requires an OS on that drive doesn't it?

No, you only need the OS on your system partition. Just keep in mind that the system registry has entries for your games. So if your don't want to reinstall games after a system restore, use a process something like this:
1. Restore your system.
2. Uninstall whatever games you don't want adding to the size and time it takes to make an image of the system.
3. Install the games on a different drive. This will reflected in the system registry, and desktop shortcuts, which will all point to the drive where you put the games.
(Steam has a method of moving Steam and Steam games to a different drive without re-downloading or reinstalling. I used that and it worked. You can find that info in Steam.)
4. Make an image of your system partition. It will be much smaller and run faster without the games, but still contain the registry entries for the games.
5. Now you can quickly restore your system when you want. Your game pointers will all be intact on the system partition.
But remember that many, maybe most games now keep save games in User system directories. So make sure you know where your save game files are, and move them off the system partition into a different partition before you restore the image.
After the restore you can move them back, and you're good to go with your OS
pointing to the right places, and your games just as they were.
It's clean and fast, not too many manual processes, and works for me.
You might even take the advice about putting the image on a different physical drive, because now your image will be much smaller, and fit in more places.
The main reason for putting images on a different drive is so you don't lose both your OS and images if your main drive fails.
But a good secondary reason is that imaging and restore will work much faster.
With system partition and image on the same drive, an image/resore operation will require the drive heads to do much more work, and all data has to pass through one disk controller instead of two. Much slower.
It's common practice to keep images on a different physical drive if you have one.

 

[mjf]

Personal Opinion:
For the general OS and non game programs I think non compressed Windows images ~50GB are more manageable (takes me 10 min to a USB3 external HDD). Try to get everything else off your main OS partition except installed programs and all OS related files. I would keep pagefile and hiberfil (if used) on the OS partition. Of course some data is fine.
Don't keep difference images in shadow storage. 209GB + shadow storage images would make me nervous and drive me nuts.

For Windows Images create a single image -> WindowsImageBackup
If you want to keep it and make another rename the folder to any other name
eg: WindowsImageBackup_5_8_12
If you want to get rid of it simply shift delete it.
On your external HDD you can move the original or renamed into another folder provided you don't cross partition boundaries.
Move and or rename an image back to WindowsImageBackup in the root of a partition and Windows will see it as a legit image to restore.
I do this all the time and it always works without a hitch.

Macrium is more flexible including you don't need to do the renaming trick but I still predominantly use the Windows Imaging.