Windows 7 to be shipped in Europe sans IE

Exactly as you say about the example
MS puts in their "crap brakes" = IE, in all their Operating Systems as standard, and everybody has the option to change their "brakes"/IE
if they so choose, and they do, every day of the week they are changing their browsers, so there is no problem with MS putting in IE into Their
Operating System, and if people dont like, it they can change it to
what ever browser they like, as many times as they like.

That is correct for us geeks/car mechanics :), but for the bullk of computer users it is a problem or they are not even aware of other browsers.

I know this seems all trival, but i think it touches some fundamental principles. Internet has become a too important information resource, to leave the access in the hands of one monopolist (MS)
 

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Just because the EU regulators are not popular due to previous bizarre acts - does not mean there is anything wrong with Monopoly regulation per se.

If you read the comments on the original Ars link, you will see it is pretty well explained by Kazper.
 
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"We geeks have a choice, we know how to install another browser. But I think 90% of the consumer have no clue about other browsers or how to install them. So in this way MS dictates the market"


I understand where your coming from but most people wont care what browser they have , only us geeks do. In all fairness Microsoft make the product so should be able to put what they want in it.If other companies cant make a product that can realistically compete with them why should they be penalised for it ?

Linux distros are on commercial PC's now , same as Apple do "branded products" but they don't get told what to do , Ive tried Linux and its not user friendly and Apple is locked by its own hardware/software so isn't that good when you think about it . OK it may be more secure but thats only due to Microsoft having the market share and hackers diverting their attentions to Windows.

I work as a bricklayer and run a small company and do fairly well for myself , but WHY should i give my competitors a chance or drop my prices so they get a slice of the cake ? you don't see Nike getting told not to supply laces or Sony told not to supply remote controls.

Without getting in to a political argument ( its a windows 7 forum after all :D ) The EU comes out with pure rubbish 24/7 and i wish i wasn't part of it.
 
Hi Legacy,

Do you have a monopoly in bricklaying - and are you tying to use that position to expand into other areas?
 

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Not at the moment but im working hard at it :D , give me a few years lol
 
Lol - great answer, Legacy - good luck to you.

So now you will get certain browser companies approaching the likes of dell, and offering them bribes, or little brown envelopes to install their browser in the latest PCs. jfar

Out of Opera, Safari and MS, which is in a better position to "persuade" oem's to include their browser - gee, I wonder.

Think you'll find direct payments will not be allowed, but there are other ways.

I suspect some oem's will include a choice of browsers - not a bad thing for the consumer or the market, if it is done in such a way that there are no barriers.

We still have to see what the EU response will be to this sharp MS move.

The regulators will probably make a hash of it as usual.
 

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Think you'll find direct payments will not be allowed, but there are other ways.

Sure back handers/ brown envelopes over cocktails make the world go round , tell me about it lol.

Microsoft do have the monopoly and thats life , but what would happen if Microsoft said.... "OK fellas we are not going to supply NASA/NORAD/NATO with secure operating systems/software anymore , we feel its in our competitors interests to give them a chance ? ". Or even worse they lost the contracts due to a ruling that stated that they had the lions share and it " wasn't fair".

As the advert says " Imagine a world without windows ". :p

Off Topic : This is a cool forum and you can never get bored in here
 

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Does anybody know of any EU rulings against Apple? or have they just singled out MS as their cash cow.

Here's the difference, MS is considered a monopoly, and have been convicted, in the past, of abusing that monopoly. This doesn't mean I agree with the amount of vigor I think the EU uses to go after MS, I'm just explaining why MS is the only one to get smacked around.

Being a monopolist is not illegal, or bad, but it does mean that governments will pay particular attention to situations where they think you can abuse your position and stifle competition. MS is a monopolist simply for the fact that they had the best understanding of this new computer market early on, and found a way to convince folks that this is the standard to follow. Once they controlled that market, they abused that power by strong-arming OEMs to use their products. I believe that MS would still be the dominant player in the computer world, even without the strong-arming, because to operate, and more importantly, inter-operate, in business, a standard platform is necessary, and Wintel was the best standard at the time.

I also fully expect the EU to turn around and fine MS for once again abusing their position by not providing a browser at all. I think MS took the right path here and told the EU, fine, we'll provide for an open field in the browser market. The EU is not going to like being made fools and will in turn, slap MS around again. They will end up forcing MS to provide links to competitor browsers upon first startup of the OS for retail packages. I'm just guessing here, but we'll see.

Ohh, and don't forget, Intel is about to become the EU's b*tch, soon. MS and Intel can sit around at a group therapy session together comparing notes on how each got schooled.

PhreePhly
 
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Ohh, and don't forget, Intel is about to become the EU's b*tch, soon. MS and Intel can sit around at a group therapy session together comparing notes on how each got schooled.

PhreePhly

Would you be kind enough to elaborate on that statement please , as I'm curious as to whats about to happen.

Thanks
 
Would you be kind enough to elaborate on that statement please , as I'm curious as to whats about to happen.

Thanks

From BBC NEWS | Business | EU slaps a record fine on Intel

"Computer chipmaker Intel has been fined a record 1.06bn euros ($1.45bn; £948m) by the European Commission for anti-competitive practices.
It dwarfs the 497m euro fine levied on Microsoft in 2004 for abusing its dominant market position."


PhreePhly
 

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I think it is a silly ruling from the EU...sometimes I just wonder if they are run by monkeys.

On the other hand and I pose this question to the knowledgeable members of this forum...why dont they go after OS X with their Safari 4? Is it simply because Microsoft is HUGE?
 

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I think it is a silly ruling from the EU...sometimes I just wonder if they are run by monkeys.

On the other hand and I pose this question to the knowledgeable members of this forum...why dont they go after OS X with their Safari 4? Is it simply because Microsoft is HUGE?

Simple answer is that Apple is not a monopoly. It's not the MS is Huge, it's that MS is a monopoly, and for them, rules are different. This is the same in the US. It's not illegal to be a monopoly, but it places you in a position to be scrutinzed. You cannot use that dominant position to stifle competition. If you do, you will get slapped.

I'm not sure that a real argument can be made that including IE is abusing your monopoly position, but if the Commisison decides it is, MS must conform. I think that MS used this opportunity to thumb their noses at the EU.

PhreePhly
 

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What are they doing so wrong tho ? Apart from making massive amounts of money, selling the best stuff going. Lets face it we all love windows , else we wouldn't be here in this forum.

Does anyone here run a business ? ...... The first rule of business is to make money and they do it oh so well. These fines are like a parking ticket to them.
 
digitalrurouni said:
I think it is a silly ruling from the EU...sometimes I just wonder if they are run by monkeys.
Perhaps if the EU was run by monkeys you would get more sense out of it. I don't think that monkeys would stoop so low and spout so many rules and regulations, all (or at least a good proportion) are totally unnecessary and certainly not wanted by a good many people.

Apologies for those who might think that it is an insult to monkeys by referring to them in this manner. It is completely unintentional. ;)
 

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Hi all
I can't see what MS is doing to stifle competition -- If you are a manufacturer of almost ANY hardware MS will bend over backwards with assistance to ensure your hardware will work with windows - whilst not giving away the source code (its not open source) they will help considerably with published API's etc so your product will work.

Try speaking to Apple about integrating ITS hardware to work with other systems.

The whole European economy is collapsing around the commissions ears and the ONE company that is still providing jobs and possible growth seems to be set upon by these imbeciles like a pack of wolves.

The only people who will make any money in this are the scumbag lawyers -- even if MS do get fined where on earth do you think the money will go to --small businesses -- I think not somehow.

It's a bit like in the UK a Court fining a railway company for lateness of trains etc -- the taxpayer just pays the fines in higher fares.

Totally POINTLESS court case IMO.

Cheers
jimbo
 

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What are they doing so wrong tho ? Apart from making massive amounts of money, selling the best stuff going. Lets face it we all love windows , else we wouldn't be here in this forum.

Does anyone here run a business ? ...... The first rule of business is to make money and they do it oh so well. These fines are like a parking ticket to them.

They became a monopoly. Like I said above, they did it (Gates did it) by having an uncanny perception of where the fledgling computer market was going early on. I believe Gates envisioned every office worker having access to their own desktop computer. You must realize that early on, this was not the general view. A time-shared mainframe was the office computer and a few people had access to terminals. Secretaries typed reports on typewriters and engineers performed hand calcs or got terminal time on the mainframe. That was the norm.

Gates saw huge opportunity in cheaper (relatively, still expensive in actual dollars) computers with a standard interface. So did Jobs, ironically. In the early days, having a mix of PC and Mac was not uncommon. PC's were used for running calculations and large spreadsheets, and the macs were used by the secretaries for typing reports, etc. Where I worked, we added Unix workstations for simulation work.

When Windows 3.0 was introduced, PC's began hitting a price point where most of an office could get individual PCs. Windows became the defacto standard and soon, Windows was on 95%+ computers. At that point MS became a monopoly. Nothing wrong with that. That was the result of being smart, but then MS began using that monopoly position to force OEMs to only pre-load Windows. They did this by giving these builders HUGE discounts for a Windows license, but that discount was based on 99% of the systems sold having Windows as the OS.

There are some that claim MS added "undocumented" API calls Word, which gave it a huge display advantage in the Office arena. This lead to the fairly quick death of Word Perfect. Others claimed that by bundling IE with Windows, this forced the death of Netscape. (Those folks also forget how bad Netscape was, and how good IE was at that time.)

There are many more examples of abuse, just google MS monopoly, and I'm sure you'll find much more. Read what you find with a grain of salt, the Slashdot crowd tends to blow things out of proportion, but many of the abuse claims are real.

By abusing their position, MS put themselves in the sights of the US Gov as well as the EU commision.

This same thing happened with telephones in the US, Oil in the US, and in those cases, the Monopoly company was forced to split into separate companies. These companies were restricted in how they could interact with one another, and later became competitors. There was talk of forcing MS to split, OS, Business software (Office, etc), and Server. This never went anywhere, mut that would have been interesting. The computing landscape would certainly be different.

PhreePhly
 

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From the horses mouth - official Microsoft Statement

Working to Fulfill our Legal Obligations in Europe for Windows 7 - Microsoft On The Issues

UPDATE: June 11, 2009 – 5:30 p.m. Pacific
Posted by Dave Heiner
Vice President and Deputy General Counsel


Earlier today CNET reported that Microsoft had sent a memo to computer manufacturers and retailers about our plans for Windows 7 in Europe. We’re getting quite a few calls on this, so we thought it would be helpful to explain our plans.
First, a little context. For the past three years Microsoft has been working to develop the next version of our Windows operating system, Windows 7. We’ve taken feedback from literally millions of beta customers to ensure that Windows 7 delivers the power, simplicity and ease-of-use that customers want. We’ve also worked hard to ensure that Windows 7 will promote choice and competition in the computer industry, in keeping with our Windows Principles. We’ve held hands-on workshops with hundreds of industry partners to ensure they have the information they need to build products that work well with Windows 7. Customers running Windows 7 will be able to choose compatible products from among literally thousands of computer manufacturers, peripheral manufacturers, and software vendors.
The worldwide launch of Windows 7 is fast approaching, but a pending legal case raises concerns about the sufficiency of competition among the Web browsers that are available to Windows users in Europe. In January the European Commission provided its preliminary view that Microsoft’s “bundling” of Internet Explorer in Windows violated European competition law.
This update contains a history of Microsoft's fun and games with anti-trust
 

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    Keyboard
    Backlit + Various Logitech
    Mouse
    Stock Track Pad + Logitech MX Trackball
    Internet Speed
    72 MB Down 18MB Up
    Browser
    Chrome
    Other Info
    Also run ...
    Laptop - Quad 8GB - Windows 10 Pro x64
    Nexus 7 Android tablet x2
    10.2" tablet
    Sony Z3 Android Smartphone
    Wacom Intuos Pro Medium Pen Pad
    Wacom Intuos Pro Small Pen Pad
    Wacom Expresskeys Remote
    Loopdeck+ Graphics Controller
    Shuttle Pro v2 Control Pad
    10TB NAS
Microsoft seems to have had another bombshell to drop with the concept of having a menu of choices of which browser to use as the alternative to seeing nothing at all.

"Our decision to only offer IE separately from Windows 7 in Europe cannot, of course, preclude the possibility of alternative approaches emerging through Commission processes," Heiner wrote. "Other alternatives have been raised in the Commission proceedings, including possible inclusion in Windows 7 of alternative browsers or a 'ballot screen' that would prompt users to choose from a specific set of Web browsers."

Microsoft said it wouldn't have been right for it to adopt such an approach on its own. "Important details of these approaches would need to be worked out in coordination with the Commission, since they would have a significant impact on computer manufacturers and Web browser vendors, whose interests may differ," Heiner wrote. "Given the complexity and competing interests, we don't believe it would be best for us to adopt such an approach unilaterally."
Europe to get Windows 7 sans browser | Beyond Binary - CNET News
 

My Computers My Computers

  • At a glance

    W7 Ultimate x64/W10 Pro x64/W11 Pro Triple Bo...AMD Phenom II X4 975 Deneb 3.6ghz - 965 2nd r...Kingston Hyper X DDR3 1600 1.5v 16gb - Hyper ...MSI HD Radeon 5750 1gb - MSI HD Radeon 6450 o...
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
    Custom builds = 2
    OS
    W7 Ultimate x64/W10 Pro x64/W11 Pro Triple Boot - Main PC W7 Remote PC Micro ATX W7 Pro x64/W11 Pro
    CPU
    AMD Phenom II X4 975 Deneb 3.6ghz - 965 2nd remote pc
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte GA-790XTA-UD4-Gigabyte GA-880GM-D2H remote pc
    Memory
    Kingston Hyper X DDR3 1600 1.5v 16gb - Hyper X Fury 8gb 2nd
    Graphics Card(s)
    MSI HD Radeon 5750 1gb - MSI HD Radeon 6450 on mini tower
    Sound Card
    Creative Labs X-Fi Xtreme Audio P - Realtek onooard 2nd case
    Monitor(s) Displays
    ASUS VW199T-P 19" HP 2082a Main-HP 2082a 20" remote pc
    Screen Resolution
    Asus 1440x900 - HP 1600x900
    Hard Drives
    WD Black 1TB HD per OS W7, W10, and pending W11 presently on 500gb OS Drive - Pending Triple 1TB HDs for Spanned Storage/backup volume
    Single 2TB external USB enclosure, single 1TB System 7 Host/Boot drive, Pending 8TB external HD for system image b
    PSU
    Corsair 750TX - primary / Corsair CX600 - second
    Case
    Antec 900-2 - SSD compatible / NZXT Vulcan mini tower
    Cooling
    Zalman CNPS9900A
    Keyboard
    AZIO L70 Backlit Letters Gaming - ONN Cordless/USB
    Mouse
    MSI DS200 Programmable, Logitech Cordless
    Internet Speed
    30mbps upgrade - primary hard wired - mini tower usb WiFi
    Antivirus
    GFI VIPRE Internet Security 2014 on W7 2016 beta on W10,
    Browser
    Cyberfox, WaterFox 64bit FF variants, FireFox x64, Pale Moon
    Other Info
    Accomdata fan cooled usb 2.0 PIDE/Sata II, III external enclosure.
    Sambient usb/eSata PATA/Sata II, III external enclosure.
  • At a glance

    W7 Pro x64/W11 ProAMD Deneb 3.6ghz - 965Kingston Hyper X Fury 8gbMSI HD Radeon 6450 DVI Output
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    System Manufacturer/Model Number
    CUSTOM ASSEMBLY
    OS
    W7 Pro x64/W11 Pro
    CPU
    AMD Deneb 3.6ghz - 965
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte GA-880GM-D2H remote pc
    Memory
    Kingston Hyper X Fury 8gb
    Graphics Card(s)
    MSI HD Radeon 6450 DVI Output
    Sound Card
    Realtek onooard Creative or Other separate PENDING
    Monitor(s) Displays
    VIZIO 32" LCD TV Separate LCD Pending
    Screen Resolution
    1600x1080
    Hard Drives
    WD 500GB OS Host/Boot WD Green 1TB Storage/Backup
    PSU
    Corsair 600W - THERMALTAKE 600W spare case
    Case
    NZXT Vulcan mini tower
    Cooling
    Twin 120mm Top Fans - 240mm Side Cover
    Keyboard
    ONN Cordless/USB Logitech Cordless
    Mouse
    ONN USB/Cordless - Logitech Cordless
    Internet Speed
    DSL 5G
    Browser
    MS Edge, FireFox, WaterFox x64, FireFox Nightly
    Other Info
    OS Testing-Remote Access to Main TeamViewer
will they also sell windows with ie as well as without in europe? like they did witht the media player-less version, windows N. no-one wanted that, pretty sure they wont want windows E.
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 build 7100 x86Intel Core 2 Duo 2.1GHz3GBIntel(TM) Graphics Media Accelerator X4500HD
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Dell Inspiron 1545
OS
Windows 7 build 7100 x86
CPU
Intel Core 2 Duo 2.1GHz
Motherboard
GM45 chipset
Memory
3GB
Graphics Card(s)
Intel(TM) Graphics Media Accelerator X4500HD
Sound Card
Realtek HD
Monitor(s) Displays
15.6" WLED 720p
Screen Resolution
1366x768
Hard Drives
320GB 5400rpm hard drive
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