Solved Gasoline...WOW

[Zepher]

It was just on the local news that Exxon/Mobil made 11 Billion $ profit in the 1st Quarter, 2011

That is only a 10% profit. They sold $114 billion worth or product.

 

[Hopalong X]

Major countries listed.
Fuel tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. average State and Federal is right at $0.49 per gallon. Most if not all are no sales tax added.
Price posted is price you pay.

I read some of the European taxes and you also have 20% VAT some places on top of fuel tax.

 

[pparks1]

I kinda get tired of hearing about how US citizens require so much energy compared to everybody else. From my perspective, I was born and raised here. For me, what we do, drive and consume is simply normal. Here, larger vehicles have always been the norm. Travel trailers and RV's are typical. We have boats, ATV's, motorcycles, etc. And most cities, in the US, have a dismal or non-existent public transportation system. You cannot exactly blame citizens for having a need to get around by car. And finally, with our housing market completely in the tank, it's not as if people who have long commutes to work, can reasonably expect to sell their homes and move closer to work.

For lots of people, that larger SUV isn't a selfish choice, but rather more or a necessity. For example, when you have 3-4 kids....how are you supposed to lug around everybody in the family in a smart car? And with the high price of cars, you cannot honesty have the larger SUV for traveling with the family and the smart car to commute to and from work.

And with regards to fuel efficient cars, Europe has tons of turbo diesel vehicles that get great gas mileage. Unfortunately, these turbo diesel engines here in the United States are simply few and far between. It's not that US citizen don't buy them, but they simply aren't available from many manufacturers at all.

I too am impacted by the higher fuel prices. While I realize that Europe and Australia are higher....I think over the past 5-10 years, the change hasn't been as dramatic there. For example, our prices have increased nearly 3x in 10 years. Have prices jumped by that much in other countries over that same time period? I'm changing driving habits, driving less, and not taking trips. I'm filling up my tank more often so that my fill up price doesn't seem as high.

And the profits made by the oil companies are just outrageous. Billlions of dollars a year....they must just be loving this.

 

[whs]

LOL, you act like my wife. She always takes gas for $20 - so she thinks the price stays the same. But seriously - your story is understandable but unless you dramatically change, there will be a rude awakening. It does not matter what you used to do, it matters what you do now. And cars or trucks that do only 20 or 25MpG are no more appropriate. What are you going to do when gas costs $10 per Gallon - and that will happen. In Europe the increase in percent terms is not as dramatic because of the large tax portion in the price.

The problem with turbo diesels is different. They need very clean diesel fuel without sulfur and water content. And that is not available in the US because no new refineries were built in the last 30 years. It is ashame because a 2 litre turbo diesel has the same torque as a 5 litre V8 - and it has up to 190HP. That would make them ideal for e.g. pick-ups at less than half the consumption.

 

[pparks1]

It does not matter what you used to do, it matters what you do now. And cars or trucks that do only 20 or 25MpG are no more appropriate. What are you going to do when gas costs $10 per Gallon - and that will happen.

Well, hopefully our alternative fuel vehicles come a long way....because unless you can fit your family into a Prius....there aren't that many vehicles getting 30+MPG here that fit a family of 4 or 5. For us to comfortably go anywhere with our 2 kids and our dog...means that we either have to take our minivan or my Dodge Magnum (which is a wagon). There isn't enough room in my Passat....which gets around 28mpg on the highway.

Like I said, lots of people would like to live closer to work, but we cannot sell our homes because they aren't worth much. We cannot rely on public transportation because we have almost none. We cannot effectively commute via bicycle because we are so spread out and there is very little room to ride.

 

[smarteyeball]

Have prices jumped by that much in other countries over that same time period?

Not by x3 - double is more like it, but all that reflects is that some countries have been paying through the nose for longer.

I kinda get tired of hearing about how US citizens require so much energy compared to everybody else. From my perspective, I was born and raised here. For me, what we do, drive and consume is simply normal.

Which makes the prospect of change even harder.

The reality is that the US are not the only pebble on the beach any more when it comes to needing vast amounts of resources.

Like it or not - simply put the US has to adapt, just like the rest of the world.

If that means replacing excessive resource hogging vehicles with more efficient ones that do the same task, then so be it.

 

[whs]

Well, hopefully our alternative fuel vehicles come a long way....because unless you can fit your family into a Prius....there aren't that many vehicles getting 30+MPG here that fit a family of 4 or 5. For us to comfortably go anywhere with our 2 kids and our dog...means that we either have to take our minivan or my Dodge Magnum (which is a wagon). There isn't enough room in my Passat....which gets around 28mpg on the highway.

I could name you at least 10 cars doing 40MpG+ where you would comfortably fit your whole gang. But unfortunately for here they are all turbo diesels. And until they make decent diesel fuel available, those cannot be used in the US. It is like I have observed since the 50s - in car matters the US is always 25 years behind the rest of the world - nice shells, crummy technology.

 

[pparks1]

Not by x3 - double is more like it, but all that reflects is that some countries have been paying through the nose for longer.

Actually, in the spring of 2000 prices were averaging $1.38 to $1.50 per gallon. I used to record all of my fill ups. Considering that we are at about $4.25 a gallon in Michigan now, that's pretty much 3x the price.

I only used that to explain why there is so much sticker shock with regards to this increase. It's not as if salaries have increased dramatically, or our public transit has increased much at all in these past 10 years. And while hybrids are nice and are far more fuel efficient these days....they are also fairly costly.

The Ford Fusion hybrid is approx $10,000 more expensive than the gasoline only Ford Fusion. At $4.25 per gallon of gas, that's approx 2350 gallons of gas that you can buy for the price difference.

So, if you average 15,000 miles per year and the standard gas engine averages 27mpg and the hybrid averages 39mpg...that means that over the course of 1 year you will consume 555 gallons of gas in the regular engine and 385 gallons of gas in the hybrid. That's a difference of 170 gallons of gas...and if you multiply that x the price of gas today (4.25), that is a savings of $722 per year. So, if the car costs $10,000 more and you save $1,000 or less per year on gas...it's going to take you 10 years simply to break even. Granted it will be faster than this because the cost of fuel is going to continue to rise....but you can see my point.

Taking my 2002 VW Passat as an example. Between City and Highway I average about 23MPG. The car is fully paid off with only 83,000 miles on it. So, I average around 10,000 miles a year on the car. It's average trade in value is around $5,000. A 2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid with Leather and approx same level of Trim of my Passat is $34,000. So, if I trade in my VW and get $5,000. I would have to finance $29,000 for the Fusion. At 3.5% (my current banks rate) at 5 years with 6% state Sales tax, that's roughly $560 a month for the payment. So, at $560 a month divided by $4.25 a gallon for gas...I would have to buy more than 131 gallons of fuel each month to save any money. Considering that at 10,000 miles per year divided by 23MPG...that's about 434 gallons of gas that I consume in a year....so I average about 36 gallons per month which is well short of 131 gallons per month.

So right now, as much as I don't want to pay $4.25 a gallon for gas, I cannot justify the expense of purchasing a hybrid to get better gas mileage. My monthly car payment would far and away exceed the cost of fuel.

Like it or not - simply put the US has to adapt, just like the rest of the world.

Yes, and I am adapting by getting used to the higher costs.

If that means replacing excessive resource hogging vehicles with more efficient ones that do the same task, then so be it.

As I demonstrate above, the difference in car prices and new car payments simply doesn't add up yet. After a few years, when hybrids can be had used and such, and gas prices go up even more, it will be more compelling.

 

[mickey megabyte]

early adopters always pay more for embracing new technology - being ahead of the curve, they belong to a much smaller sector of the market.

but there eventually comes a time when progress defeats inertia, and the old stuff gets phased out and the old 'new' becomes the norm, due to its inherent advantages. goodbye dinosaur, hello mammal etc (or something)

good thing too - or we would all still be using abaci...

i'm 43 years old, and i've never owned a car (not bragging about it - i''ve always been poor, and cars are very useful things, especially if you have a family - which i don't). instead i have a scooter, and i remember being shocked just a couple of months ago by having to go over the psychological barrier of £10 (yes, a whole ten quid!) to fill her up.

 

[whs]

There is still something you do NOT understand - hybrids are NOT the solution. Too heavy, too expensive, too complicated. Plus they are by far not as efficient as turbo diesels. Get a few modern diesel refineries into the country and you are in business. There are hundreds of car models (40MpG and better) in the world that would satisfy everybodies needs. For smaller cars, you can even look for 70 to 80MpG - and not only Smarts.

 

[pparks1]

There is still something you do NOT understand - hybrids are NOT the solution. Too heavy, too expensive, too complicated. Plus they are by far not as efficient as turbo diesels. Get a few modern diesel refineries into the country and you are in business. There are hundreds of car models (40MpG and better) in the world that would satisfy everybodies needs. For smaller cars, you can even look for 70 to 80MpG - and not only Smarts.

It's not that I don't understand this....it's that this is where the US seems to be going. Getting more and more turbo diesels doesn't seem to be happening here. So, I'm not sure why I would focus on alternatives that don't seem to be available.

i'm 43 years old, and i've never owned a car (not bragging about it - i''ve always been poor, and cars are very useful things, especially if you have a family - which i don't). instead i have a scooter, and i remember being shocked just a couple of months ago by having to go over the psychological barrier of £10 (yes, a whole ten quid!) to fill her up.

I think it would be awesome to be able to get by without a car. My brother in law has lived in Switzerland and London and managed just fine without a car in both locations. Where I live in Michigan, we have snow on the ground for 1/2 the year...so getting by with a scooter would probably not cut it. In addition, we don't have subways, trolly's, and very, very few cabs even. And I used to have to drive 32 miles each way to work. I'm down to 12 miles each way now...it's the shortest drive of my professional life. Maybe i could get a scooter during the summer. I strongly considered riding my bicycle to work, but we have no place to shower in the office and I couldn't sit at my desk in a full blown sweat all day.

 

[whs]

It's not that I don't understand this....it's that this is where the US seems to be going. Getting more and more turbo diesels doesn't seem to be happening here. So, I'm not sure why I would focus on alternatives that don't seem to be available.

That would be something to take up with your Congress man/woman. It is high time that the US catch up with the leading industrial nations. And a public transportation infrastructure should be addressed too. The 2 options for transportation you have now (cars and defunct airlines) is not going to work for a long time any more.

Here is a long distance travel option that is available since 25 years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Layg7NpyTes&feature=related

And this i even a better option: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPduAYKk_6I

 

[pparks1]

That would be something to take up with your Congress man/woman. It is high time that the US catch up with the leading industrial nations.

Well, this is something that while commendable, isn't going to help with our current high gas price issue....as this would take, years, upon years, upon years. I'm sure that somebody else is banging on this drum, so I'm not going to spend the rest of my life lobbying my local politicians...who seem to really only care about those things which increase their power and wealth.

And a public transportation infrastructure should be addressed too. The 2 options for transportation you have now (cars and defunct airlines) is not going to work for a long time any more.

Unfortunately, both of these things have high costs associated with them, and if you haven't watched the news as of late, our economy is anything but booming. People are already strapped with the middle and lower classes failing entirely.

 

[whs]

Unfortunately, both of these things have high costs associated with them, and if you haven't watched the news as of late, our economy is anything but booming. People are already strapped with the middle and lower classes failing entirely.

If you go by that, there is never a right time. Think of the trillion Dollars that was sunk in Iraq - was that at the right time.

My plan would be simple. Increase the gas tax by 50 cents each year for the next ten years. That would get the gas price to the European level and people would have an incentive to change their car purchasing habits. That would also put trillions into the public budget which could be used for a transportation infrastructure (like the national highway initiative under Eisenhower).

In addition I would tax all other energies and give the money back to the people so that they insulate their houses, install solar power, etc. It is appalling how little insulation is being put into houses. In my Florida home it is a sheet of aluminum paper and the windows are single pane - and the AC has to do the rest. In Germany the code is 6 inch insulation on the outside and 2 inches on the inside, plus triple pane windows. That's how you get zero energy homes even in a German climate.

Half of the US is in the sunbelt but i hardly ever see solar. With proper tax incentives that could be changed and if you use only half of the energy from your supplier ( or even less), then twice the price does not hurt - the same with the gas consumption of cars.

 

[Swifty]

1.4/L Dx atrocious!

 

[fseal]

In addition I would tax all other energies and give the money back to the people so that they insulate their houses, install solar power, etc. It is appalling how little insulation is being put into houses. In my Florida home it is a sheet of aluminum paper and the windows are single pane - and the AC has to do the rest. In Germany the code is 6 inch insulation on the outside and 2 inches on the inside, plus triple pane windows. That's how you get zero energy homes even in a German climate.

Half of the US is in the sunbelt but i hardly ever see solar. With proper tax incentives that could be changed and if you use only half of the energy from your supplier ( or even less), then twice the price does not hurt - the same with the gas consumption of cars.

Florida is not exactly a future forward state. California has the very same construction laws as you are talking about for Germany. Please remember that the US is a lot like the EU, every state can be vastly diferent from the next WRT this stuff.

And solar...

Well there are nearly astronomical problems with large scale solar roll out. The complete and utter lack of a storage mechanism for massive amounts of power means that solar will have to be backed up by full power from non solar sources at all times unless we wish to simply accept that there will be no power at night or on cloudy days.

And even turning plants on and off with the sun is not something they were ever deigned for, entirely new systems have to be built around the concept. And then there are the clouds which can cut and surge megawatts of power in seconds across solar farms. Similar problem with systems where everyhouse has it's own solar feeding the grid. The grid can only take a small % of homes on solar before huge forward and backward swings of power generate cause serious problems on cloudy days.

Huge huge problems. Would be nice to simply put something on your roof to take care of all your power needs, and in very limited cases that can work. But rolling that out nation wide? It could take 50 years to get there even working hard on it now. The problems are being studied but, there are NO realistic solutions for it right now.

[Edit] California actually has quite a few solar farms and more on the way and a lot of these problems are actually being worked out in this state, which is why this kind of news and awareness of the issues is common here. At best they provide the peaker energy needed on hot sunny days for AC for local towns. Nothing to sneeze at, but just a % of the total need.[/edit]

 

[whs]

Hmm, interesting. When I lived in San Jose, Cal, my house had no insulation either. But that seems to have changed in the meantime.

As to solar, even if it took 50 years to get to a complete solution, that is better than doing nothing. But I see nothing happening right now, and I doubt it would take that long once we put our minds to it. One day that may be the only option and we better start now working on it.

Granted, in Germany it is not pervasive either - in part because the climate is really not favorable. But I know people who installed solar as far back as 25 years ago. They cut their heating oil consumption by 80%. The savings there plus the goverment incentives made it well worthwhile.

 

[Joan Archer]

Just my 2 pence worth but over here diesel is more expensive now whereas for years it was always cheaper to run a diesel car than a petrol one, not anymore.

 

[pparks1]

My plan would be simple. Increase the gas tax by 50 cents each year for the next ten years. That would get the gas price to the European level and people would have an incentive to change their car purchasing habits. That would also put trillions into the public budget which could be used for a transportation infrastructure (like the national highway initiative under Eisenhower).

So, over 10 years via tax alone they increase us from $4.25 a gallon to $9.25 a gallon. We already are evaluating our car purchasing habits...but our only real choices are hybrids (which you said are not the answer) and pure electric cars (those aren't the answer either with limited run capacities and the increasing costs of electricity). And I cannot help but think that our country would squander that tax collection and it would be used to somehow benefit the top 1% of the richest people.

In addition I would tax all other energies and give the money back to the people so that they insulate their houses, install solar power, etc. It is appalling how little insulation is being put into houses. In my Florida home it is a sheet of aluminum paper and the windows are single pane - and the AC has to do the rest.

While I would love to insulate my house more, with the housing market doing as poorly as it is, it's an investment right now that I simply cannot get back. When I bought my house in 2000, it was valued around $130k. It got up to close to $150k and is now worth about $40k. I've only got 5 years or so left on a 15 year mortgage and I'm still under water. Honestly, the extra in the utilities is less than the cost of making it more efficient. In the long run, I know it's better for the world to make the changes...but I've gotta pay my medical bills, pay for my kids schooling, pay my insurance premiums, pay for my cars, pay for my mortgage, pay for my gas, deal with high unemployment, no raises, lost wages due to hour cutbacks, etc.

Just my 2 pence worth but over here diesel is more expensive now whereas for years it was always cheaper to run a diesel car than a petrol one, not anymore.

We have been more expensive for diesel here as well up until very recently. Now, it seems that gasoline is higher and diesel is about 15c per gallon cheaper.

 

[whs]

One advantage of high taxes on fuel is that the goverment can choose to tax diesel lower than gas - which they do in Germany. So you win twice - lower consumption and lower price. Plus more power and a longer lasting engine.

And I cannot help but think that our country would squander that tax collection and it would be used to somehow benefit the top 1% of the richest people.

That would be a matter of proper legislation and earmarking.

While I would love to insulate my house more, with the housing market doing as poorly as it is, it's an investment right now that I simply cannot get back. When I bought my house in 2000, it was valued around $130k. It got up to close to $150k and is now worth about $40k. I've only got 5 years or so left on a 15 year mortgage and I'm still under water. Honestly, the extra in the utilities is less than the cost of making it more efficient. In the long run, I know it's better for the world to make the changes...but I've gotta pay my medical bills, pay for my kids schooling, pay my insurance premiums, pay for my cars, pay for my mortgage, pay for my gas, deal with high unemployment, no raises, lost wages due to hour cutbacks, etc.

Now you touch on another whole set of problems. Education that is not free of charge, health isurance that does not cover you 100% (or nearly), cars that are being purhased on credit and general credit card debt that people have. None of those problems I ever had to face. But that is a discussion for another day.