WLMM and DVD and aspect ratio

[flez]

Tried to import a video from a DV camcorder into windows livemovie maker, and burn to dvd..

First issue no burn to dvd option, surely saving it as avi/wmv and then working with that is a real bodge?

Second issue it thinks the footage is 4:# because its 720:576, its not, it really is 16:9 !

Camera outputs both 720:576 for 4:3 and 16:9, seems it sets something on the tape to tell the camcorder that it is, but moviemaker is not seeing the identifier

I tried seting moviemaker to widscreen, but the it just adds bars to my final created file, no use at all.

Any clues how to fix this, daughter is nagging for it to be finished

 

[mitchell65]

There is no quick fix in this. To start with it looks as if you are using PAL equipment when I think you are in an NTSC area. If your camcorder is recording to 720 x 576 pixels that is a standard definition size for PAL. The standard size for NTSC is 720 x 486 pixels. OK so neither size equates exactly to 4:3 or 16:9 but that's the way is has evolved and we are stuck with it. The same pixel size is used for both 4:3 and Widescreen 16:9. The software that controls the recording uses what is called "Unsquare Pixel Rendering" and that is what renders the aspect ratio.
As I say I think you are in an NTSC area although you don't state your country in your profile. The timezone does not necessarily reflect the TV area. If you record in PAL you will have trouble trying to play the resultant DVD in an NTSC area.
PLease post here the actual properties ofthe video clip in question. Confirm your area. State whether the clip was recorded at 4:3 or 16:9. You dont give details of your camcorder but check to see if you have the choice of aspect ratios.
Finally and this is the most important question. What media does your camcorder record to and how exactly do you import the clips from the camcorder to the PC. Is it by USB, Firewire ar do you record to a card or mini DVD. Please give as much detail as possible . Some may seem irrelevant but ot is all important
Look forward to helping you more on this!

 

[whs]

I had the same problem. My Kodak Zi8 records in .mov and I import the pictures directly from the SD card. But after I set the WLMM apspect ratio to 16:9 (in View) and saved in HD (1080p), the results do not show the black bars any more.

 

[mitchell65]

I had the same problem. My Kodak Zi8 records in .mov and I import the pictures directly from the SD card. But after I set the WLMM apspect ratio to 16:9 (in View) and saved in HD (1080p), the results do not show the black bars any more.

Yes but you were recording in HD which would likely be 1440 x 1080 pixels, so that is a whole new ball game as the saying goes. The standard size differences between PAL and NTSC do not apply. The HD sizes are the same whatever area you are in.

 

[whs]

I had the same problem. My Kodak Zi8 records in .mov and I import the pictures directly from the SD card. But after I set the WLMM apspect ratio to 16:9 (in View) and saved in HD (1080p), the results do not show the black bars any more.

Yes but you were recording in HD which would likely be 1440 x 1080 pixels, so that is a whole new ball game as the saying goes. The standard size differences between PAL and NTSC do not apply. The HD sizes are the same whatever area you are in.

OK, understand. I am not such an expert in the matter. I do the old trial and error approach until it works.

 

[mitchell65]

I had the same problem. My Kodak Zi8 records in .mov and I import the pictures directly from the SD card. But after I set the WLMM apspect ratio to 16:9 (in View) and saved in HD (1080p), the results do not show the black bars any more.

Yes but you were recording in HD which would likely be 1440 x 1080 pixels, so that is a whole new ball game as the saying goes. The standard size differences between PAL and NTSC do not apply. The HD sizes are the same whatever area you are in.

OK, understand. I am not such an expert in the matter. I do the old trial and error approach until it works.

Slightly off topic but did you know you can produce a High Def DVD from a standard disc that will play through a Blu-Ray player. You can produce a Blu-Ray type disc with standard equipment. You will need a Blu-Ray player though but a PS3 playstation makes an excellent BR player!

 

[whs]

Interesting - but I have no blu-ray equipment.

 

[flez]

In the end I used Nero.....

I am recording PAL in a PAL area. (uk), I imported the video via firewire. camcorder is an original sony trv120e (e models lack some feature due to meddling and politics)

Had to install ten times the software needed because WLMM is missing one simple check box to allow manual selection of input ratio instead of it guessing from frame size. frame size should never be taken as an indication of ratio, thats just sloppy and useless if its a non standard frame size.

My camcorder records 4:3 as 720:576 AND widescreen 16:9 as 720:576, its an older model and it hails form the days of widescreen CRT, not pixel counting... you got widescreen by applying a lower voltage to the scart input socket and in return the TV just reduced the scanning voltage on the height coils...


While some may think its wrong to use same for both, there was no set in stone standard back then., and 720:576 is the most/onlything it can record, and you would not want to record in anything smaller if you could right?

Oh well, problem not fixed but disaster averted.....

 

[mitchell65]

In the end I used Nero.....

I am recording PAL in a PAL area. (uk), I imported the video via firewire. camcorder is an original sony trv120e (e models lack some feature due to meddling and politics)

Had to install ten times the software needed because WLMM is missing one simple check box to allow manual selection of input ratio instead of it guessing from frame size. frame size should never be taken as an indication of ratio, thats just sloppy and useless if its a non standard frame size.

My camcorder records 4:3 as 720:576 AND widescreen 16:9 as 720:576, its an older model and it hails form the days of widescreen CRT, not pixel counting... you got widescreen by applying a lower voltage to the scart input socket and in return the TV just reduced the scanning voltage on the height coils...


While some may think its wrong to use same for both, there was no set in stone standard back then., and 720:576 is the most/onlything it can record, and you would not want to record in anything smaller if you could right?

Oh well, problem not fixed but disaster averted.....

The problem with the black bars is, I would guess , a capture problem. WLMM is not the most reliable tool for capturing video. This is easily cured with the right software.
Re; The red highlight above. This is perfectly correct. The newest camcorder on the market records as above. This is the standard size for both 4:3 and widescreen in a PAL area. As I pointed out it is the "non-square " pixel rendering that makes the difference. When you say "not pixel counting" that is what 720 x 576 is, the size in pixels.
I really must repeat this even to the point of being boring. You have a very good camcorder and with a firewire connection there is no reason at all why you cannot produce perfectly acceptable finished DVD's in either 4:3 aspect or 16:9 widescreen. You can produce both from the same video clips providing you start by recording in 16:9 aspect. There will be no black borders.
I am willing to help you achieve this but I don't use WMM, it hasn't got he full facilities that I need particularly as far as a timeline feature is concerned. Would you be willing to invest in third party software?
The reason I assumed you were in an NTSC area was that your profile shows you as being in the USA timezone!

 

[flez]

Ahh, ok, but still as you say the same pixel resolution can be used for both aspect ratios, so it would be common sense NOT to auto select aspect on that criteria alone.

When there's two possibility's, fine have auto selection, but provide a manual override, it makes sense...

Its just little issues like this that can totally spoil a users experience, I'm lucky enough to be able to go find some other software to import and fix it with, but a new user may not be and would then just spend a wasted evening being nothing more than frustrated.


Ill go fix my timezone...

 

[mitchell65]

Not sure what you mean by "auto selection". With your camera you must have either 4:3 or 16:9 selected. There is no auto selection, there can't be. How would your camcorder tell what you were going to show the resultant video on 4:3 or 16:9 equipment. If you turn the camera off whilst in the 4:3 setting then the next time you turn it on it will be in 4:3.
If you are talking about selecting the aspect ratio to author your final DVD to then exactly the same info as above applies. Makes no difference what software you use.

 

[flez]

No in my camera I choose the aspect ratio fromt he reocrding menu, it records the same frame size but with different pixel ratio as you say, the problem is when i import it into WLMM it sees it as 4:3 if it was recorded as 4:3, and still sees it as 4:3 when recorded as 16:9, and there seems to be no way to stop this.

 

[mitchell65]

c, the problem is when i import it into WLMM it sees it as 4:3 if it was recorded as 4:3, and still sees it as 4:3 when recorded as 16:9, and there seems to be no way to stop this.

When you say "No in my camera I choose the aspect ratio fromt he reocrding menu, it records the same frame size but with different pixel ratio as you say"
That's exactly what everyone who uses this capture sytenm does. It is the tried and tested procedure! Perfectly normal practice!
If you are getting a 4:3 clip that was recorded at 16:9 then I can only re-iterate what I keep saying that is the capture stage is at fault somewhere. Can you give a detailed workflow of exactly what you do and what settings you choose when you capture via your firewire card? I did ask if you would be prepared to invest in some 3rd Party software but there is a better way. How about a 30 day trial on Corels Video Studio? You can download it from here:
Video Editing Software – Corel VideoStudio Pro X3

Then I can help you better regarding the capture process. I know that works well! We can also do some very good and straightforward editing there too!

 

[flez]

c, the problem is when i import it into WLMM it sees it as 4:3 if it was recorded as 4:3, and still sees it as 4:3 when recorded as 16:9, and there seems to be no way to stop this.

When you say "No in my camera I choose the aspect ratio fromt he reocrding menu, it records the same frame size but with different pixel ratio as you say"
That's exactly what everyone who uses this capture sytenm does. It is the tried and tested procedure! Perfectly normal practice!

I didnt know they all did that, this is the only one i have owned since new at like $1000 when it was released

If you are getting a 4:3 clip that was recorded at 16:9 then I can only re-iterate what I keep saying that is the capture stage is at fault somewhere. Can you give a detailed workflow of exactly what you do and what settings you choose when you capture via your firewire card?

Turn camera on, press menu, select widescreen, exit menu, press record.

Had another go today, now says it cant import at all, does not see the camera now, but it says the camera is plugged in etc in device manager, and a third party bit of freeware can see it and capture from it, so looks like WLMM has gone to the wall

I did ask if you would be prepared to invest in some 3rd Party software but there is a better way. How about a 30 day trial on Corels Video Studio? You can download it from here:
Video Editing Software – Corel VideoStudio Pro X3

Then I can help you better regarding the capture process. I know that works well! We can also do some very good and straightforward editing there too!

[/quote]

May give that a try if i can spare a few hours to play this week, but I still see no reason why I cant select the aspect ratio of my source footage, its an omission in my book.

 

[mitchell65]

May give that a try if i can spare a few hours to play this week, but I still see no reason why I cant select the aspect ratio of my source footage, its an omission in my book.

If you mean that you can't select the aspect ratio of the final DVD then you can. When you get to the Burn stage at the bottom right of the screen you will see "Options" Click that then on the DVD Options tab you can select 4:3 or 16:9 amongst other settings.
But I do agree WLMM is a poor example of a video editor. Most regular users and I repeat I am not one of them, use the older versions, not this latest offering! I can't stand it, it is far too cumbersome and there are not enough user selectable options.
Personally I would not waste my time on it. As soon as we finish this thread I shall uninstall it as a complete waste of space IMHO, of course!!!!!

 

[Wishmaster]

Does it record as anamorphic?

Theres 3 different resolution types.

720x480 = 4:3
720x480 anamorphic = 16:9

The only differnce is the AR flags in Video stream.
An anamorphic encode simply flags the AR in a way which tells the decoder to stretch the image in order to fill a widescreen viewing area.
(For example it may flag AR as 175:96 rather than 4:3)

Other true 16:9 are 720x400, 1280x720, 1920x1080

Not very familiar with PAL material, but it may work the same.

 

[Gornot]

Not very familiar with PAL material, but it may work the same.

Pretty much... The main difference between PAL and NTSC is that PAL video streams are always interlaced.

I see that flez has some good support here, so I won't interude (too much), but I would simply like to say that, in the end, aspect ratio does not matter, nor the standard the video was recorded in... WLMM is a very, very bad piece of software; perhaps not for video editing; but encoding yes. No cropping, the AR issue happens often, it is limited in output formats etc.
@ flez, I know that, perhaps, you don't want to hear this, but I suggest that you simply use another piece of software for both encoding and authoring DVDs, regardless of the source.

 

[mitchell65]

PAL works the same but the standard is 720 x 576 as opposed to NTSC which I think is 720 x 486. Anyway with great respect I think to go down the anamorphic road at this stage would be trying to run before we can walk. Lets get a sound understanding of the basics before we get too techie! I daresay that there are many members who produce perfectly good and acceptable DVD's without any knowledge of the principles of anormorphic re-forming. The very name is likely to put some people off, sounds more like a disease of something unmentionable! :devil:

 

[Wishmaster]

If it helps, and you do not mind taking the time to learn the program, you can try recoding it with MeGUI.

I have a Tutorial for it in the Tutorial section, as well as one for burning AVCHD for those who record in HD

As for burning SD Video to DVD, I have always used Nero for this.
Of course this is a program you must purchase.

I'm not sure what another good alternative would be thats free.

 

[Gornot]

As far as open source alternatives go, I'm not sure there actually is a good alternative that is not actually hard as hell to understand and efficiently manipulate.

BTW, MeGUI rules 8D