Cloning & Back Ups

[stranexuk]

Hi all,

I have very limited knowledge of the above but following past problems with viruses, hardware malfunctions etc, I am looking at my options for my new system.

So, I have done some research but I am now completely confused!

What I'd LIKE to do is the following;

Have a 500GB drive, 2 partions, one for OS+Programs and the other for User Data

If I understand correctly, this will save me time by only having to defrag that partition that needs doing? It will also mean I can "back-up" one partition easily without having to do the other? For example, I can carry out regular, scheduled backups of the Data partition without the need to backup the OS/Program partition? In addition, the loading of programs MAY be slightly faster as it's only looking at a small area of the disk?

I would also like to create a clone of the OS/Program partition so that if I have any problems with that partition, I can quickly get back up and running.

Now, this is where I need some help /advice......

Ideally, I'd like to use another, identical, internal 500GB HDD partitioned in exactly the same way and the "master" HDD. I would clone the OS/Programs to the appropriate partition when I have everything installed and subsequently when I install any new programs, SP's etc. I would then back-up my data partition on the master to the other partition on the second HDD on a regular basis. Is this possible? Can you clone to a partition on a different internal HDD? Can you do something completely different (ie back-up) to the other partition on that drive or does the clone HDD have to be completely free of anything else?

Another question, I have read somewhere that the clone needs to be the same type and size and the "master" so that clone can just "replace" the master if and when a problem occurs? In this case, how do people clone to an external drive? Surely, when you unplug the master via the SATA and then connect the external via USB/Firewire, the BIOS will see a completely different type of drive?

Lot of questions I know, but any help, advice, suggestions to help enlighten me will be much appreciated!

 

[Bare Foot Kid]

Hello stranexuk, welcome to Seven Forums!



You can do what you want, there are differences in the terms "clone" used to completely copy the existing OS to a new Hard Disk Drive (HDD) in case of failure of the original HDD; and "image" used to copy the OS to the same HDD to recover from OS problems.

In both cases it is recommended, if not required by the clone/image program to make the backups to another HDD and not the HDD the OS is on.



Have a look at this tutorial at the link below for an excellent program used and recommended by a lot of the members that frequent these forums; be sure to post back with any further questions you may have and to keep us informed.

Imaging with free Macrium

 

[stranexuk]

Thanks Bare Foot, have viewed the video and it certainly helped a little.

I am still unsure of a few things though;

1/ What is the difference between "imaging" and "cloning" an OS partition? The vid shows a simple image & recovery of some data but, If I understand correctly, rceovering an image of the OS would not be so simple? Something to do with the need to reinstall product keys etc for the installed programs?

2/ The video does not answer the question as the whether it's possible to "clone" the OS partition and "image" the data partition to similar partitions on a second internal HDD?

3/ How about restoring a "clone" of the OS? Would one go about it in the same way as the video shows? As I understand it, with a clone, you boot from that clone rather than recover the image/clone back to the original location?

Many thanks in advance!

 

[Wishmaster]

If you have 2 partitions, 1st for the OS and Programs, second for all DATA files, creating system Images, (backups and restores) will be much more effecient.

As far as the second HD being partitioned, it doesnt need to be, as it will be simply backup storage. 1 single partitioon assigned as backup for Imaging program is perfectly fine.

Your backup Program will keep everything organized for you, So you know what is System Images and what are File/Folder backups.


Imaging and Cloning are somewhat Similar in the sense they make a copy of the drive.
Cloning However, moves the entire partition or disc over to a NEW disc, making it the primary boot disc.
(For example if you just want to move the OS from your 500GB HD to a 1TB HD)

The old drive can then be removed, or used for something else.
The same thing can be achieved with a system Image restore to a new drive as well, But you'll need to format the old drive.

Imaging, creates a Image of the target partition and/or disc and stores it in a seperate location to be restored to the same or different disc in the future.

 

[stranexuk]

Thanks Wish,

I have just been doing some more research which basically said the same as you wiht regard to differences between cloning and imaging.

Am I right to think then, that if I were to clone my OS partition to a separate internal HDD, then that second HDD would then become the primary disk and would be used for the next boot? In that case, I guess you would have to disconnect the drive after the clone was made in order that the original drive remained as the primary? This would then obviously prevent the second drive as being used for regular images?

Am I also right to think that the MAIN difference between restoring a clone and a image of the OS is that with a clone, it can be used straight away by just removing/disconnecting the original drive, but with a image, you must use the recovery disk and then restore the image to a new drive? Any other problems in that second method with regard to product keys etc, or will the OS and programs work will minimal fuss once restored?

 

[Wishmaster]

Cloning, The old drive gets deleted and will be empty when its complete.
The new drive will then be the active/boot drive.


In regards to Image recovery, I am only familiar with Acronis. I think they all work quite similar though.

You can recover from the bootable CD, or from within Windows. Depends on the circumstances.

When recovering to the same drive, you simply open the app, choose recover and select the Image.
You'll then be prompted to reboot, and 10min later (depending on image size) your up and running again.
Or you can do it friom the CD, if for example Windows simply will not boot.

If you were moving to a new drive, its similar.
You just boot from the recovery CD (The one from your imaging program of choice), format the old drive and restore the Image to the new drive or whichever drive you choose & your ready to boot up.

You can also just restore the Image to the new one, and format the old once back in Windows.
You only need to be sure that the New drive is set to 1st boot device in bios.

 

[stranexuk]

Cloning, The old drive gets deleted and will be empty when its complete.
The new drive will then be the active/boot drive.

Really? I don't recall having seen this mentioned anywhere else? If this is true then surely cloning should never be recommended as any kind of emergency "back-up" because it causes the original to get deleted straight away!? In this case, all cloning is good for is to move something to a new disk? That's certainly not the way I understood cloning to work :huh:

 

[Wishmaster]

Actually, you do have the option to keep the DATA on the old disc.

Sorry.

 

[stranexuk]

No problem Wish, just wanted to make sure I understand everything correctly before speccing my system.....I appreciate your help!

So, from what I'm hearing, cloning is not really of any use as an "emergency backup" as it deletes the original in the process?

In that case, I'm better off just imaging the OS/App partition whenever there are new Apps, Service Packs, Updates installed and doing the same for the DATA partition on a regular basis. That way, if the OS ever gets corrupted, or if something happens to that HDD, then I have a "copy" of everything that I can simply restore to a a new disk....is that correct? I know I also have to think about the possibility of the 2nd HDD getting damaged/corrupted in the same way the first is and so I'll probably also image to an external drive on a weekly/monthly basis? Is this what you guys would recommend?

 

[billberry12]

Yep. Exactly.

 

[karlsnooks]

If your purpose behind "imaging" and/or "cloning", is to be able to restore your system in case of a catastrophic failure, then Windows 7 Backup and
Restore, being sure to click on "system image" in the left-hand pane and then choosing ALL partitions on the drive your want to "image"/"backup", you can with a Windows 7 System Repair Disc, restore everything at once, painlessly, accurately, and easily.

I know this is true because I performed this very operation several times in the course of my studying the Win 7 Backup and Restore.

You can also use Win 7 Backup and Restore to image and consequently restore only your C drive. This I also tested.

I am not fond of Win 7 folder backup approach, although it is incremental which is a strong positive.

I use Win 7 Backup and Restore to image my entire computer. This is done about once every 3 months. I use SyncToy, also from Microsoft, to backup my data files. C is my system partition and D is my data partition.

I use synctoy about once a week.

 

[stranexuk]

Thanks Karls, the purpose for my "backups" is soley to guard against catostrophic faiilures as you mention and I'm intrigued by the ability to use Win7 BackUp and restore to acheive this rather than purchase some 3rd party software such as Acronic TIH.

As you obviously have a lot of experience with it, does Win7 Backup and Restore work in a similar way to the all the other imaging software (ie. images to a different drive/partition and then you can restore that image from a recovery CD....or install disk I guess in the case of Win7)? Do you think it's easier for the average user to use over say Acronis TIH?

You mention not being keen of using it for data backup purposes despite it using the incremental approach....any particular reasons for this? I would certainly like to be able to back up the data partition on a scheduled basis using an incremental approach (much like yourself with SyncToy), but if I'm having to purchase SyncToy, I may as well get TIH or Ghost or similar that will do both tasks for me?

 

[karlsnooks]

Good questions.


I'll jump to one area of concern.
SyncToy is 100% free. In fact, I just used it about an hour ago to backup my D drive. Since I'd already used SyncToy, then SyncToy only added new folders and new files, overwrote a couple of files which I'd updated, and deleted a file which I had deleted.

SyncToy also has a preview feature so that you can make sure that you didn't shoot yourself in the foot.

SyncToy doesn't attempt to zip/compress which makes the use thereof extremely easy and quick.
SyncToy 2.1

When Win 7 Backup and Restore performs a backup,
one VHD file is created for each partition backed up.

Other info is also saved off so that Win 7 knows where to restore the partition, etc.

Because a VHD file is created, then the restore is simple and you can even, independently of Win 7 Backup and Restore, examine that VHD via "mounting" using DiskManagment. This actually gives you the capability of extracting and file or folder you desire since the mounted VHD is treated just like another drive by Windows Explorer.

I've never taken advantage of this feature, but did guarantee that the feature works perfectly.

A general word about backups: You don't backup to the very drive you are trying to backup. Win 7 won't let you even try this.

Your best bet, since you want to have the most flexible solution is to always backup to an external drive or a drive on your network if you have a network of computers.

I have a small Toshiba external usb drive which I use.

The restore operation itself is performed by booting from a Win 7 System Repair Disc. One of its options is to perform a restore, assuming you have a backup.

Now let's see. The Win 7 Backup and Restore is best used by ignoring the "Backup" button and the scheduling feature, in my opinion, and simply choosing "System Image" in the left-hand pane of Win 7 Backup and Restore dialog, then specify the partitions to be backed up. My hard disk has a C for system stuff and a D for data. When performing a system image backup, I go ahead and choose both since, disregarding testing, I only make a system image once every blue moon. I can always restore my data from the backup I made using SyncToy.

My external drive, has two partitions: one to hold system images and the other to hold the SyncToy backups.

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[FONT=&quot]DISC - CREATE A SYSTEM REPAIR DISC[/FONT]​

START | type System Repair | Enter key | Create Disc button

​

​

 

[Wishmaster]

Even if the main HD fails, a system image you have will work just fine to get you up and running again.

Just install the New HD, remove the old.

Boot from the recovery CD and restore the Image to the new HD.
And your good to go.

 

[stranexuk]

Excellent! Cheers chaps, you have been most helpful and I really appreciate your help in making me understand all this!

One last question to karls if I may?.......The system I'm building is for the old man who's not the best at remembering to carry out regalar back ups! Does SyncToy allow scheduled backups or do they need to be carried out regularly? It sounds from your description that it does allow incremental back ups which is good to hear. Sounds like I may be able to get away with not purchasing any additional software and just use a combination of Win7 BU&R and SyncToy in much the same way as you

 

[karlsnooks]

Another good question.

Yes you can schedule SyncToy backups.

Backups and backup frequency and backup methods have been and will continue to be a subject of discussion on software forums.

If the chap is not going to be performing backups with any great frequency, then you could well be better off showing him how to schedule a Win 7 "backup" that includes a system image. This way you get both folder backups and image backup. The backup will take longer and require more, but not excessive, external disk space.

Shawn's tutorial on Win 7 Backup and Restore covers this scenario rather well.Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup

 

[stranexuk]

Thanks again for all your help, it's great that people are willing to share their knowledge with newbies like me!

I've been thinking about all this overnight and I have done some more research on Win7 BU&R and SyncToy and they certainly seem to provide the functionality I'm after.

A couple (more!) questions that comes to mind that I can't seem to find an answer for yet....

When Win7 BU&R (or SyncToy for that matter)is scheduled to make backups (of the DATA partition in my case), what happens if the computer is switched off at this time? Does in just kick in next time the machine is switched on or does it require manual intervention?

Even with incremental backups, if I'm also creating a system image every so often, the second HDD will eventually fill up. What happens when there is no longer any space for the backups/images? Again, is there some manual intervention required or can the programs be setup to overwrite the oldest images? Thinking about it, with the DATA backups, I guess it can't overwrite any backup as it require the original backup PLUS all the incremental backups.....how does this then work when you run out of space?!? I guess you just have to manually intervene and delete the current backups and start afresh?......

Sorry for the rambling.....on nightshifts, watching the Ryder Cup and lack of sleep is playing havoc with my brain lol!

 

[karlsnooks]

The Win 7 Backup and Restore is supposed to delete the oldest backup to make room when needed. Now that is one that I've not tested since, I've always gone in and deleted ancient stuff myself.

I don't believe SyncToy has such a feature. You are worrying a long way done the road for a home system. If this was a commercial system, then you would have other concerns.

I've had as many as eleven backups on one external usb drive which isn't a monster size drive either. Got that many when I was testing. Didn't run out of space.

 

[karlsnooks]

Brink has been cranking out the tutorials again and has a new one designed specifically for a couple of your questions.

You will find following informative and useful:
Backup User and System Files - Delete Backups - Windows 7 Forums

 

[stranexuk]

Brink has been cranking out the tutorials again and has a new one designed specifically for a couple of your questions.

You will find following informative and useful:
Backup User and System Files - Delete Backups - Windows 7 Forums

Great tutorial, thanks

Anybody any idea as to what happens though when the computer is switched off at scheduled back up?