Infinite Application Data

[seekermeister]

While trying to fix a problem with Java working properly, I discovered that when going to Documents and Setting\username\App Data\Local, that the Application Data folder contains another Application Data folder, and it another, then another, etc. Each Application Data folder has a shortcut arrow marking it. When I open the Properties for the first one, and then select the Previous Versions tab, it displays a list of Application Data folders with a variety of dates.

When reading the help, it says that the previous versions are created by either System Restore or Backup. I have used System Restore only once, but I have never setup Backup at all.

Since I have fixed the Java problem in both IE8 and Firefox, I thought that I would try the same with Opera by reinstalling it on itself, but the installer wasn't able to see the source file, and when using Windows Explorer I wasn't either.

Perhaps the only solution is a fresh clean install of the OS, but I'm not anxious to do so. Since it's not clear what caused the problem that exists, the new install may end up the same way.

Any ideas? I'm all ears.

 

[seekermeister]

I can understand why no one has replied, because it is a strange problem, but I don't understand why this has gotten so little readership.

 

[logicearth]

This is the reason why the various junction points have the "DENY" permission on them so infinite loops like this do not happen....

 

[seekermeister]

I'm not certain that I understand that, but your response suggests that the cause of my problem may have been due to my use of the Take Ownership program here:

Add "Take Ownership" to Explorer Right-Click Menu in Win 7 or Vista :: the How-To Geek

It is the primary, if not sole means that I have changed any permissions, but I have used it extensively in my x32 installation of W7 without any incidents. Maybe x64 just doesn't like it. If that be the case, is there a way to correct it?

 

[logicearth]

If you are going though "Document and Settings" then going to "Application Data" that is located in AppData\Local, and so forth. That means you removed the the DENY permission that kept you from doing so, in turn causing an infinite loop. That Application Data junction points to AppData\Local and ever one there after does the same. You can see the problem can't you?

 

[seekermeister]

Vaguely, but I need to be able to access those folders to be able to manage some of my programs. Even if I reinstall the OS from scratch, I still need a means to be able to enter these folders...How?

But before making any decision about reinstalling the OS, I need to know if there is any method to correct the problem that exists now?

 

[logicearth]

Vaguely, but I need to be able to access those folders to be able to manage some of my programs. Even if I reinstall the OS from scratch, I still need a means to be able to enter these folders...How?

By going to the REAL location.
http://www.svrops.com/svrops/articles/jpoints.htm

You might have noticed when clicking on a folder in Windows Explorer, with a shortcut icon on it (a Junction Point), you get an Access Denied message from Vista. This is to be expected. As mentioned above, the Read permission for Junction Points is set to Everyone – Deny. You are not supposed to access these folders, and there really is no reason to access these folders. Again, these Junction Points are just pointers to the new folder structure used in Vista.

I...delete the junctions myself. I never needed them.

 

[seekermeister]

Thanks, but it is going to take me a while to digest the data in that link.

 

[MacGyvr]

The "Application Data" folder is no longer used by Windows. What you see called Application Data is merely a placeholder for backwards compatibility. It points to AppData. You should not have messed with the Application Data junction point, and doing so has caused the problem you are having. If you needed access to something in what used to be the Application Data folder, it would now be located under AppData.

Do a System Restore back to a point in time before you fiddled with the permissions/ownership.

 

[seekermeister]

Do a System Restore back to a point in time before you fiddled with the permissions/ownership.

Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be possible, because there is only one restore point shown, even when I check the box to show more, and that restore point is for today, which wouldn't do any good.

 

[seekermeister]

logicearth,

I keep reading the data in your link, but it doesn't really sink into my old thick skull. When I entered dir /al, it only showed the folders within users, which I do understand is in essence the "real" location of most entries, but it is obvious that some programs, which are not so oddball, like Opera, Sun Java, Skype and others ignore this file structure to some degree. For instance, Opera places it's folders in several places...some within the Program Files (x86) install folder, some in users, and some in Documents and Setting/username/App Data/Local/Opera.

I'm not certain, but it appears that this latter group is where the problem is, but it is also where certain customizations that I accustomed to must be done. In the past, Opera had a choice to use an installer that placed all program files within the folder created at install, but with Opera 10, that no longer appears to be true.

At this point, it seems that I'm going to have to attempt to delete the extraneous Application Data folders, and hope that this fixes the problem. The only alternative is to start over from scratch, as I feared at the beginning.

Situations like this have a tendency to fluster me, and sometimes I can't see the trees for the forest. I understand the words on your linked page, but if they present a solution, I'm not seeing it.

 

[profdlp]

...At this point, it seems that I'm going to have to attempt to delete the extraneous Application Data folders, and hope that this fixes the problem...

I am having the same problem (and probably for the same reason: TakeOwnership), and am going to try this myself.

Fingers crossed. :shock:

 

[MacGyvr]

logicearth,

I keep reading the data in your link, but it doesn't really sink into my old thick skull. When I entered dir /al, it only showed the folders within users, which I do understand is in essence the "real" location of most entries, but it is obvious that some programs, which are not so oddball, like Opera, Sun Java, Skype and others ignore this file structure to some degree. For instance, Opera places it's folders in several places...some within the Program Files (x86) install folder, some in users, and some in Documents and Setting/username/App Data/Local/Opera.

I'm not certain, but it appears that this latter group is where the problem is, but it is also where certain customizations that I accustomed to must be done. In the past, Opera had a choice to use an installer that placed all program files within the folder created at install, but with Opera 10, that no longer appears to be true.

At this point, it seems that I'm going to have to attempt to delete the extraneous Application Data folders, and hope that this fixes the problem. The only alternative is to start over from scratch, as I feared at the beginning.

Situations like this have a tendency to fluster me, and sometimes I can't see the trees for the forest. I understand the words on your linked page, but if they present a solution, I'm not seeing it.

If you start deleting, you are going to make the situation worse. The "folders" you see are not actually folders, but pointers. You run the risk of deleting real folders that you need.

If you cannot do a System Restore, you are going to have to reinstall Windows to get back to where you should be.

You also apparently have other system issues if your System Restore points are missing/not working.

 

[seekermeister]

I guess that I'm resigned to reinstalling the OS...I just have to get my mind set for the chore. The thing that I still don't understand is why I didn't have this kind of problem on the betas and RC of both x32 and x64, when I did the same thing with permissions there? The only significant thing that I know is different, is that the betas and RCs were Ultimate, and my RTM is Professional.

 

[MacGyvr]

Don't worry about the why's...just reinstall and don't mess with permissions. There's no way to really go back and tell why it happened.

 

[seekermeister]

reinstall...yes, but if I don't know the whys, I'm going to continue to have problems because I must change some permissions to make my computer behave as I require. I will be much more careful about any changes that I make, especially in regards to the use of Take Ownership with junctions, but one way or another I will get what I want.

 

[zBobG]

Junctions

I have seen these duplicate folders (junctions) on a computer that had a fresh install where there had been no changes in permissions. I don't think it has anything to do with permissions. It does however have something to do with "view hidden folders and files" being set ON.

Normally that 'Application Data' folder (junction) is hidden and you'll never see it, so keep it hidden and no one knows any different, it can however be seen by programs written to parse the Windows folder structure and can cause that program to fail. I have had to rewrite several programs to simply ignore the 'duplicate' folders, this is not so simply done by creating a sorted list then matching folder paths and ignoring the duplicates. I consider this 'feature' of Vista (also applies to Seven) junctions to be broken.

The following link provides one reasonable explanation of junctions and why they (don't) work as you might expect. Link to the lockergnome.com post, scroll down to the 2nd to the last post.

In brief from that post:

This actually is explained completely by the behavior of junctions - and I
would assume that this is one of the reasons that the shell denies access to
junctions (by default).

"c:\users\USER\Local Settings" is a junction that points to
"c:\users\USER\AppData\Local"
"c:\users\USER\AppData\Local\Application Data" is a junction that points to
the same place.

I do not completely agree with the explanation given, I consider junctions to be a broken feature - a MS kludge used only to provide backwards compatability.

 

[seekermeister]

I'm still going through the thread that you linked, but I read one post that raised a point that might explain why I had this problem on the RTM and not before. In the betas and RCs I always ran in the administrator account, instead of the user account. I reversed this because I didn't understand about the built in administrator account being disabled until today...looking at the clock, yesterday.

If I enable the administrator account before doing any program installations, and doing all installations there, perhaps this would avoid a repeat of this mess...what do you think?

 

[logicearth]

I do not completely agree with the explanation given, I consider junctions to be a broken feature - a MS kludge used only to provide backwards compatability.

Junctions are far more useful then backwards support. Junctions are like hardlinks but for folders, need an alias to a location say on an external drive or a networked location? Use a junction without the need of copying any data over.

It is not junctions that are broken, it is your understanding. No offense.


And it has everything to do with permissions. Because the default permission that is set on the junctions for backwards support, have one and only one permission that gives the Access Denied. Everyone, DENY, List folder / read data. As long as this permission is set, not even the super powerful SYSTEM account gets access.

If your applications choke when they reach an Access Denied then your applications are the ones that are broken. In programming it is called error handling.

 

[logicearth]

If I enable the administrator account before doing any program installations, and doing all installations there, perhaps this would avoid a repeat of this mess...what do you think?

When installing you elevate (by getting a UAC prompt) you are then running with administrative power, running as the real administrator would not help. There is a secret most are not told about, if and when an application is ran without administrative powers and it writes to a location it does not have permission to, the location is virtualized.

Virtualized locations and files are stored here:
C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore

But stay out of "Document and Settings" or delete it, but the new location is Users.