Normal service is resumed as Windows 7's growth once again.....

[Kari]

Dear Lady, please let me to assure you I did not mean that OK, now you should like Windows 8. I only meant that wrong information based on invalid facts can have consequences, a casual reader might read it and decide "Oh, you have to have an MS account. That's a No No for me".

I am a devoted Windows 8 advocate. A few years back I had not even dreamed about so flexible and customizable easy to use OS, when I installed the first beta I knew this is my thing. The XP brought me back to World of Windows from Linux / Unix scene, Seven showed I was right returning "home", Eight told me I will most definitely stay.

As a part of this advocacy I see correcting false information and rumors not only important but also necessary. And it must be corrected fast, rather in the next post. Go a few posts back and you see what I am fighting against: correcting invalid information is considered as starting a fight.

My only purpose to post here, the content in my posts has been to correct some invalid information and untruths. In doing so I of course understand I "rock the boat" because as you can clearly see, the pro-Eight arguments are not very much tolerated.

Kari

 

[ThrashZone]

Got to love a good debate,
I have to admit I'm a bit bias being a member of Sevenforums and not eight

 

[Layback Bear]

Microsoft and their shareholders look at these three things for sure.
1. Market share
2. Sales
3. Profit
Windows 8.xx does not do well in any of those three. No I'm not going to post a bunch of web sites.

Whether the information about Windows 8.xx is misleading or the truth at this point doesn't matter.
The mass market indicated what they prefer by spending their money.
They spent their money on Windows 7 over Windows 8 for their own reasons.
Whether I like Windows 8 or not probably wasn't even in the equation. Hell I know it wasn't.

If a company makes 100 million ding dongs, they best make sure the ding dongs are made in such a fashion that a 100 million want to buy them.
If the consumers don't buy 100 million ding dongs it not the consumers fault.

 

[Kari]

Whether the information about Windows 8.xx is misleading or the truth at this point doesn't matter.

Instead of trying to find a fight as has been suggested, I really do my best to avoid fighting. This is why I cannot even comment that statement.

Microsoft is still making a lot of money, more than the competitors. It's funny how even some respected tech bloggers and journalists have been hinting about a lost race when Windows 8 & 8.1 have grown to be over 50% bigger in just under two years than Mac OS and Mac OS X in 30 years.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems:

​

Yet, nobody is suggesting Apple should give up.

 

[Layback Bear]

I never suggested Microsoft should give up.
I like Microsoft, I need Microsoft.

 

[andrew129260]

I am awaiting a response still for post 15.

 

[Kari]

I am awaiting a response still for post 15.

To avoid fight, I saw no reason to comment your post but OK, you asked it so here we go although there's not much to comment.

Extract from your post #15:

Kari I think you are taking my opinions and reading them like I am saying they are facts. I know I do not have to use the store, I know I can avoid and not use metro completely. I know I can do simple tasks with just a much different way in 8, I know windows 8 is a desktop operating system etc.

Let's go back to my answers (post #5) to your first post (#4) in this thread. I was referring for instance to the highlighted parts of your post as "false information" and clearly more than an opinion:

I don't need every app taking up my entire screen. I want to multitask. Yes you can snap apps, yes you can resize. But everything is ridiculous giant and cumbersome. It speaks volumes that it has such as low market-share as it does.

The stupidest BS argument I have ever heard of. If you do not like Store Apps and how they behave, you do not have to use nor see them ever again. The same if you do not like the Start Screen, boot to desktop and never use Start Screen again. Multitask with desktop apps exactly as you do with Windows Seven.

Previous versions is a perfect example. It is a fantastic tool and is gone and replaced with the dumber file history. That requires a external hard drive hooked up at all times to restore previous versions of files. What good is that? Why make it harder to do something?

Again BS. File history does not require an external HDD. For example I am using a separate partition in my system disk for it.

Both of the highlighted statements are not true.

Windows 8 Desktop Apps work just as their Windows 7 counterparts. They are not bigger, they are not more cumbersome, in most cases they even take less PC resources and start faster than in Windows 7. You cannot compare Windows 8 Store Apps and Windows 7 Desktop Apps. Apples and oranges.

Your statement about File History requiring an external HDD to be always connected was and remains BS.

A bit OT but I like the flexibility of File History; if I want to keep more old versions not wanting to delete the older ones but my File History drive is getting full, I can change the target drive on the fly. Can you tell me how it's done with Previous Versions?

​

By the way, in post #5 I asked you something that you have not answered yet:

To me it still takes longer to do simple tasks.

Name a few "simple tasks" that takes more time to do in Eight that in Seven.

Kari

 

[andrew129260]

Where is the response to this since you only took the first bit out of post 15?

The previous versions thing from post 6, I stated file history must have a drive set up to use it.

Windows 7 uses previous versions (shadow copies) and restores files from restore points. No external hard drive or another drive needed for setup, nothing needs to be turned on etc.

File history requires a drive to be set up and file history must be turned on. I am not able to use my C drive on my windows 8.1 pro vm.

From Microsoft article: Restore files or folders using File History - Windows Help

Windows Tutorials, Howtos, and More!: Windows 8: How To Recover Previous Versions Of Files

 

[Kari]

Where is the response to this since you only took the first bit out of post 15?

The previous versions thing from post 6, I stated file history must have a drive set up to use it.
...
...

I see no question there to answer. Only a bit misleading statement: The drive for File history does not need to be set up. Any connected and formatted internal drive except system reserved partitions and drive C:, external or flash drive is OK, even memory cards.

What about the list of simple tasks taking longer in Windows 8? Is that list going to be so big you need more time to compose it?

 

[andrew129260]

To address the other things:

I know I do not have to use the store, I know I can avoid and not use metro completely. I know I can do simple tasks with just a much different way in 8, I know windows 8 is a desktop operating system etc.

I am saying I do not like or care for windows 8, nor do not see why people with windows 7 would want it. No where did I say you must use the store, you must have apps full screened etc. I was giving my opinion on it that is all.

My opinion is saying, windows 8 does not improved on the experience I have now, so why would I upgrade?

This is what I am saying.

It is not the fact that these things can be changed, it is that they have to be in order for it to function well.

Example, photos open in the photos metro app instead of the desktop app. This makes no sense, the operating system constantly flips back and forth from desktop to metro like crazy.

I'll say it differently,

When I clean install 7, I set the following number of preferences to make windows 7 the way I like.

6.

In windows 8, I have to configure almost 30 settings (28) to make it usable. I have to turn off booting to metro, I have to disable and reset all file associations, gettting rid of the 2 different internet explorers, etc. For me, (imho) usable. When I have customer who come in to have their PC reset up, that is several settings to go through each and every time.

Now maybe I am wrong on this, but I have attempted to use a clean install with a system image with prebuilt settings set so I do not get customers calling me asking how to close out of internet explorer. Even with improvements made, my customers cannot get around. Even after spending time to show them. I have not found a way to make a system image with windows 8 to apply to all pcs and pop in a key, as there is no lisence key found on these new pcs. So maybe I am doing something wrong, but windows 8 constantly keeps refusing to activate and causes so many headaches. Not just windows 8 itself, but the licensing way of things.

Maybe I am confused, in the wrong I do not know. But things should not be this difficult that I have to spend so much time on 1 pc to get it to a point where my customer does not throw the thing out the window. (The real one.)

I have people that buy windows 8 pcs and return them without anyone but them touching them. When I ask why and offer to show them how to use it, they say I should not need to configure the computer in order to make it work simply. That is the real issue.

 

[andrew129260]

Where is the response to this since you only took the first bit out of post 15?

The previous versions thing from post 6, I stated file history must have a drive set up to use it.
...
...

I see no question there to answer. Only a bit misleading statement: The drive for File history does not need to be set up. Any connected and formatted internal, external or flash drive is OK, even memory cards.

What about the list of simple tasks taking longer in Windows 8? Is that list going to be so big you need more time to compose it?

So without setting up a drive, your telling me I can restore my files using previous versions?

That is not true. Windows file history must be using a drive. Any connected? So drive c then? Nope, does not work. You say it does not need set up, but you have to turn it on to restore previous versions of files. Windows 7 did not need to do that. No media was required to restore old versions of files.

I also want to point out, the average windows user here. The average window user does not back up their files. In windows 7, that was usually not a issue as you can easily restore lost documents etc with previous versions. Windows 8 you cannot. You must turn it on and set it up, and have it use a external or another internal storage device.

 

[andrew129260]

And as hard as this is to believe, I know people think I am just not liking it when things change. The reality is, I like change. But when instead of improving or creating better ways to do things, and frankly doing the opposite; it makes things so complicated, where before it was streamlined and simplified I see little reason to upgrade.

I like windows 8 on a tablet. For me it should stay there. You will not hear me saying windows 8 sucks or is a pile of trash. It is a great OS. Even on the desktop once the settings are set up.

But again, these are my opinions and what I have discovered. If they are BS and not fact, ok I will be glad to be proven wrong. But there are differences when I say I do not like the way it does things vs me saying you cannot do those things. There are facts and opinions in what I write. I am not saying they are all fact or opinion.

I also mean no disrespect or attack on windows 8. Or anyone personally.

 

[SIW2]

This thread is bizarre.

Nobody cares what the personal peccadilos of Andrew or Kari are.
The fact is, win 8 has done badly for MS. The public do not like it much, to put it kindly. Blaming the customers is extremely foolish.

 

[andrew129260]

This thread is bizarre.

Nobody cares what the personal peccadilos of Andrew or Kari are.
The fact is, win 8 has done badly for MS. The public do not like it much, to put it kindly. Blaming the customers is extremely foolish.

I did not mean to cause your thread to go nutz, I see it as talking about windows 8 and discussing it. Sorry about derailing your thread....

 

[SIW2]

It isn't about any individual enthusiasts love/dislike. It is much more fundamental.

Here is a product which MS have spent a lot on, which has huge shelf presence, and it is going down like a lead balloon.

MS have made a series of basic mistakes. I have posted repeatedly about them.

They are now starting to do the things I posted. There is more to it than that. Let's see if they can figure it out.

 

[Kari]

So without setting up a drive, your telling me I can restore my files using previous versions?

That is not true. Windows file history must be using a drive. Any connected? So drive c then? Nope, does not work. You say it does not need set up, but you have to turn it on to restore previous versions of files. Windows 7 did not need to do that. No media was required to restore old versions of files.

Yes, I noticed my own mistake and edited it already but apparently too late for the sake of this argument . The edited versions of my statement goes like this:

Any connected and formatted internal drive except system reserved partitions and drive C:, external or flash drive is OK, even memory cards.

Next: in an earlier post of yours, you separated setting up and enabling / turning on the drive needed for File History. My point was that there's only one step, to enable it, instead of two as you hinted, setting first a drive up for File History. You don't even have to select the drive, Windows is quite good in selecting the most suitable drive.

In windows 8, I have to configure almost 30 settings (28) to make it usable. I have to turn off booting to metro, I have to disable and reset all file associations, gettting rid of the 2 different internet explorers, etc. For me, (imho) usable. When I have customer who come in to have their PC reset up, that is several settings to go through each and every time.

Now maybe I am wrong on this, but I have attempted to use a clean install with a system image with prebuilt settings set so I do not get customers calling me asking how to close out of internet explorer. Even with improvements made, my customers cannot get around. Even after spending time to show them. I have not found a way to make a system image with windows 8 to apply to all pcs and pop in a key, as there is no lisence key found on these new pcs. So maybe I am doing something wrong, but windows 8 constantly keeps refusing to activate and causes so many headaches. Not just windows 8 itself, but the licensing way of things.

Maybe I am confused, in the wrong I do not know. But things should not be this difficult that I have to spend so much time on 1 pc to get it to a point where my customer does not throw the thing out the window. (The real one.)

I have people that buy windows 8 pcs and return them without anyone but them touching them. When I ask why and offer to show them how to use it, they say I should not need to configure the computer in order to make it work simply. That is the real issue.

This can of course be due different working methods, different way in presenting 8 to people or different approach in general but I have never needed more than 10 minutes after installation to make a Windows 8 computer behave as closely as Windows 7 as possible. Also, again maybe due different approach, not a single person or company I have helped or consulted both privately and professionally in for instance lately quite common upgrade from XP to 8 have complained after initial day or two learning period when they have seen what they have got.

In fact, as we speak I am sipping bourbon I got from a neighbor after I helped him last weekend to get rid of a 10+ year old PC with XP, get a new one with 8.1 and set it up. Initially he only gave me a few bottles of wine but he saw me on Friday and gave an extra bottle of bourbon (might be he knows my hobbies...) saying: "If I had known how smooth it is, I had discarded XP the day it (8) came out" (free but quite accurate translation).

 

[Kari]

It isn't about any individual enthusiasts love/dislike. It is much more fundamental.

Here is a product which MS have spent a lot on, which has huge shelf presence, and it is going down like a lead balloon.

MS have made a series of basic mistakes. I have posted repeatedly about them.

They are now starting to do the things I posted. There is more to it than that. Let's see if they can figure it out.

This is exactly why wrong and misleading information must be corrected. I know quite a many geeks who believe these untrue horror stories and use them as a reason not to upgrade.

I really have big issues in understanding that it is considered as fighting when someone tries to correct this wrong information spread even here, a dedicated Windows forum.

 

[andrew129260]

Now we are getting somewhere. Okay,

So without setting up a drive, your telling me I can restore my files using previous versions?

That is not true. Windows file history must be using a drive. Any connected? So drive c then? Nope, does not work. You say it does not need set up, but you have to turn it on to restore previous versions of files. Windows 7 did not need to do that. No media was required to restore old versions of files.

Yes, I noticed my own mistake and edited it already but apparently too late for the sake of this argument . The edited versions of my statement goes like this:

Any connected and formatted internal drive except system reserved partitions and drive C:, external or flash drive is OK, even memory cards.

Next: in an earlier post of yours, you separated setting up and enabling / turning on the drive needed for File History. My point was that there's only one step, to enable it, instead of two as you hinted, setting first a drive up for File History. You don't even have to select the drive, Windows is quite good in selecting the most suitable drive.

Ok agreed.

So I think we are clear here now....

This can of course be due different working methods, different way in presenting 8 to people or different approach in general but I have never needed more than 10 minutes to make a Windows 8 computer behave as closely as Windows 7 as possible. Also, again maybe due different approach, not a single person or company I have helped or consulted both privately and professionally in for instance lately quite common upgrade from XP to 8 have complained after initial day or two learning period when they have seen what they have got.

In fact, as we speak I am sipping bourbon I got from a neighbor after I helped him last weekend to get rid of a 10+ year old PC with XP, get a new one with 8.1 and set it up. Initially he only gave me a few bottles of wine but he saw me on Friday and gave an extra bottle of bourbon (might be he knows my hobbies...) saying: "If I had known how smooth it is, I had discarded XP the day it (8) came out" (free but quite accurate translation).

Ok, Honest question here:

With windows 8 I noticed new pc's have no license sticker on them with a key. There is a sticker that says windows 8 and it glows but no key. Now, I have done reading up on this but cannot get a definate answer. It looks like the key for 8 is stored in the bios/uefi chip.....so If I want to get the key I must use something like speccy or something to retrieve it, on order to do a clean install correct?

 

[andrew129260]

Never mind, I think this here answers my question..........sorta

Clean Install - Windows 8

Even better:

http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-8-activation.html

Of course now I can find articles when I casually look for them. When I really needed them I could not find them. I was typing window 8 license explained, this time I used the term windows 8 sticker and got a bunch of articles lol.

 

[Kari]

Never mind, I think this here answers my question..........sorta

Clean Install - Windows 8

Yes. I never leave a pre-installed OS with bloatware on rigs, I always do a clean install, be it my own rig or one I am preparing for a friend or a customer.