Random PC Freezing - no pattern

[dsperber]

This thread is identical in subject matter to this other thread, also started within the past few days. Good thoughts and observations being talked about there, so take a read.

Very interesting that this "freeze / lock-up" non-BSOD symptom is occurring so often to many of us, including myself in three different machines (two of my own, and one of my cousin). I've described my own experience in that other thread.

 

[dsperber]

And mine as well. Asus M/B. Totally random black screen then it tries to restart but fails. Occasionally going into a loop of restarts. Happy New Year..

Me too, on two ASUS machines. One is a P8Z77-V Pro built 5 years ago, and the other is a Z170-Deluxe built not 2 years ago.

Unresponsive to mouse jiggle or power off/on of monitors or anything. Frozen Windows GUI onscreen if the lockup occurred before screensaver/power-save-mode of monitors. Finally forced to hold the power button on case in for 5 seconds to shut it down. And then restart, and pray.

Might then stay up, for an unknown period, before repeating.

I finally completely fried one (older P8Z77) of my machines this past Saturday. No longer would power on. Could be a destroyed case or motherboard or CPU. Tried a brand new PSU but to no avail. I now am in the process of replacing the machine.

The other machine (newer Z170-Deluxe) is still trying its best, currently operating for a recent record of 24 hours without a freeze... but I'm not naive, and if something's broke and you don't fix it then it's still broke and will eventually show the symptom again. I'm fully prepared to replace this machine as well, and have already ordered its likely soon-to-be-replacement as long as I was ordering the other machine's now-you-must replacement.

 

[dsperber]

Just in passing I mention that on both ASUS machines (different motherboards) I noticed that the SMART information being read from SATA3 drives (either 3.5" SATA3 HDD spinner or 2.5" SATA3 SSD) occasionally would drop out from the Aida64 OSD presentation. Very curious, not frequent, but occasional.

At the same time as these SMART dropouts occurred, I had long delays getting to access the data on the partitions located on these drives. I took this to mean that the SATA/AHCI controller was "failing". Rebooting the machine always reset everything and cleared up the prior failure. The SATA controller is hardware on the motherboard, so I took this to point to a failing motherboard.

These SMART failure symptom occurrences are much rarer than the freeze symptom which was occurring pretty much constantly, 1-30 times per day. But I'm still leaning toward motherboard failure being at the heart of all of these symptoms.

 

[Buckalou]

Could the common denominator be a Windows update? Did everyone here with this issue install an update that was just released when these freezes started to happen?

Mine wasn't after any specific recent updates. I will say my computer is a bit old, about 7-8 years now so maybe it's just old and chalk it up to that? Really not too sure. My motherboard isn't an ASUS it's a Gigabyte.

 

[Megahertz07]

It may be a disk failure.
Open a CMD window (as admin) and type:
chkdsk c: /f
It will say your disk is in use and if you want to schedule to next boot = yes
Reboot
Pay attention on the results, specially bad blocks and bad clusters.

 

[Buckalou]

It may be a disk failure.
Open a CMD window (as admin) and type:
chkdsk c: /f
It will say your disk is in use and if you want to schedule to next boot = yes
Reboot
Pay attention on the results, specially bad blocks and bad clusters.

What's the difference of running chkdsk c: /f versus just chkdsk in CMD window? I've done just the chkdsk and no errors came up.

 

[Megahertz07]

The option /f is to fix the errors. If it didn't find any, there is nothing to fix.

 

[johnhoh]

Here's my troubleshooting guide for a system with a 5+ year old motherboard that has random freezes/restarts and start>run>msinfo32>components>problem devices field is empty.

1) if you have a powerful video card, try a different one or onboard graphics just for now. (If you have a weaker video card or are already using onboard graphics, its not your problem.) See if the problems persist.

2) Next, reinstall windows and run for a day or two.

3) if the problems persist, assume the motherboard has gone bad.

4) if you don't want to upgrade because you like the system (other than the freezes!), buy an identical motherboard on ebay for $50

I've been doing this for 35 years. For the first 30 of those years things like overheating cpus, failing power supplies, buggy drivers, bad memory dimms, etc would cause your symptoms. But over the last 5-10 years as everything has gotten better, an aging motherboard, which has by far the highest number of points of failure of any hardware in your machine and is by far the hardest to troubleshoot, has become the main likely culprit.

 

[Buckalou]

Here's my troubleshooting guide for a system with a 5+ year old motherboard that has random freezes/restarts and start>run>msinfo32>components>problem devices field is empty.

1) if you have a powerful video card, try a different one or onboard graphics just for now. (If you have a weaker video card or are already using onboard graphics, its not your problem.) See if the problems persist.

2) Next, reinstall windows and run for a day or two.

3) if the problems persist, assume the motherboard has gone bad.

4) if you don't want to upgrade because you like the system (other than the freezes!), buy an identical motherboard on ebay for $50

I've been doing this for 35 years. For the first 30 of those years things like overheating cpus, failing power supplies, buggy drivers, bad memory dimms, etc would cause your symptoms. But over the last 5-10 years as everything has gotten better, an aging motherboard, which has by far the highest number of points of failure of any hardware in your machine and is by far the hardest to troubleshoot, has become the main likely culprit.

Nice tips but what would you consider a powerful video card? I'm using an old one as well, it's an NVIDIA Geforce GTX 550 Ti. If I want to maintain all of my downloaded games, programs, etc before trying to uninstall and reinstall Windows would I just make an image of it and then restore the image after a fresh Windows install? Problem is I don't think I'm capable to uninstall and reinstall a motherboard.

 

[johnhoh]

Step 1A is to disconnect your video card (yours is powerful enough to be the issue here. maybe) and try using a another one, or using motherboard graphics, or if neither of those are an option, to replace the driver your video card uses with the "Standard SVGA driver" that is built into windows. When a video card fails, it will often still work fine using the SVGA driver, which utilizes only the most basic of the video card hardware. Yes another option is to boot into Safe Mode With Networking and to run that way for a day or two. Safe Mode uses the Standard SVGA driver. If you have any restarts or freezes in Safe Mode, odds are pretty good your video card is fine.

Replacing an existing motherboard with an identical one is much easier than building a system from scratch, since before you start disassembly you can take a picture of exactly how it should look when you are done. The only hard part is removing and reinstalling the cpu. Its understandable if you think replacing a cpu is a bit too much for you, it is for many folks, you gotta be a handy type to take on the challenge.

 

[shwekhaw]

Having a similar issue. Suddenly mouse and keyboard went dead. Ctrl+Alt-Del does not work. Have to force restart. Nothing show up when I run chkdsk and scannow. When I do run>msinfo32>components>problem devices, I see "Microsoft Teredo Tunneling Adapter" device disabled. I do not know what device it is.

Is there a software that can tell us what kind of error is causing the freeze? Event viewer is not showing much of information.

I do have ASUS motherboard. Computer is only about 2 years old.

 

[wither 2]

I found a blog that indicates that freezes have been occurring in Win 7 since December due to the latest update to Malwarebytes. If anybody has done the update, you might uninstall or disable Malwarebytes.

 

[wither 2]

In addition, Microsoft just released this update- KB4487345 which fixes some of the problems caused by the earlier January updates.

 

[Buckalou]

I found a blog that indicates that freezes have been occurring in Win 7 since December due to the latest update to Malwarebytes. If anybody has done the update, you might uninstall or disable Malwarebytes.

Very interesting thanks for pointing this out! I'm reading about it now. I don't recall when I updated Malwarebytes but am currently using it and I think I have the version that's the issue. Here is a link in case anyone is interested there are a few workarounds/troubleshooting tips. Malwarebytes for Windows and Windows 7 Freeze/Lock-up - Malwarebytes 3 Support Forum - Malwarebytes Forums

 

[wither 2]

Did any action in regards to malwarebytes help with your problem?

 

[dsperber]

My "freeze" symptoms go back before the mid-December release by Malwarebytes of the 483 (and newer) component group which many feel is somehow responsible or a contributing factor for these freezes. So I'm not convinced.

At first I tried just disabling the "web protect" feature on the latest MBAM version, since that was mentioned as a possible lesser extreme fallback workaround. It was this "web protect" feature in the newer component package that was believed to be the culprit. Unfortunately I still had a freeze.

So I uninstalled and reinstalled the next older product version (I got my copy from Bleeping Computer which has an ongoing discussion about this whole "freeze" topic) but the same version is also available from Malwarebytes themselves. This older product version includes 482 of the component package, which is purported to be "freeze-causing free". I will say it seems much stabler, and I've now had only one freeze since going back-level. But I'm still not entirely sold.


I have actually replaced one of my home-built desktop machines which physically died (I think I destroyed the motherboard, or CPU, or PSU) because of all the hard power-rebooting I had to do because of the many freezes throughout the day. Turns out the freezes persisted even with the brand new Lenovo M910t that replaced it (with Win7 pre-installed by Lenovo) so I'm convinced it's something else in either the software I install, or Windows Updates from the past few months, or my LAN and other PC's on it, etc.

Also, my two home-built desktop machines were ASUS boards (P8Z77-V Pro, and Z170-Deluxe), and both run Windows Media Center with Ceton and Hauppauge TV tuner cards inside, and both exhibited freezes. One had a 5-year old Win7 and the other was less than 2-years old. I tried reinstalling Win7 from scratch on the P8Z77 and miraculously it was freeze-free for a few days. I thought "that's a miracle". But then it started freezing again. And then it died.

I've now replaced the P8Z77 "dead" machine with a brand new Lenovo M910t and , and still see freezes. So it's not the old or new hardware itself I'm convinced.

I'm more suspicious of "network interference", because I can "see the freeze coming on" if I happen to be watching a TV program from one of the HTPC's when the freeze situation arises. I can see the picture freeze on the TV, I can see the WMC extender become completely unresponsive, and it looks very similar to a "network congestion" event.

Even more suspicious, the freeze usually takes out BOTH of my desktop machines on the LAN. How can that be unless there's some network component? I've seen "rapidly blinking lights on the router" as if one or both of the machines was simply "spewing out data from its NIC", like a denial-of-service attack on my LAN. What caused that? Who knows.

I've typically had problems re-booting one desktop machine when not realizing the other desktop machine had also frozen. When the re-booting machine gets to the point in its startup process where it needs to go out to connect to network drives it hangs, because it's obviously "confused" by the status of the other machine (which has frozen to all human attempts at interaction, but perhaps may still be able alive and running and able to cry out for help somehow to its partners on the LAN). If I then go to the second machine and either power it off or go through its own re-boot, well now the first machine magically continues normally with its re-boot in progress, and the desktop finally comes up normally!

So it appears the problem is exacerbated with multiple Win7 machines on the LAN. Certainly seems Windows Media Center is almost always the visiblity mechanism (at least it's easy to notice when a freeze occurs here), although I've had freezes outside of viewing or recording periods. Just sitting idle, or early in the re-boot process when it hasn't even completed putting out the desktop... I've seen freezes here as well.

I thought it might have to do with the large number of external USB-connected devices I have (mostly USB 2.0 mice, printers, scanner, Motorola Tuning Adapter, etc., and some USB 3.0 hard drives used for regular backups). So I've tried powering off anything that I wasn't actually always needing... but that really didn't help.

I've swapped routers, replaced one of my Ceton tuner cards, tried different USB mice, reinstalled Win7 from scratch, even replaced the now-dead ASUS machine with a completely brand new Lenovo-built M910t, and still I get the freezes. I will admit it does appear much better these past few days once backing out to the older Malwarebyte version with 482 component, but it's still not perfect.

I'm going out of town for a week and can't stand the possibility of my primary HTPC/DVR freezing while I'm away. So I've taken the extreme step of shutting down the second machine for the week. There's nothing it does or that I need to access remotely that I can't live without or access equally well from my primary HTPC. Since it does appear that things are much more stable with only one machine running and no other network activity that's how I'll run for this week, and fingers crossed I get all of my Australian Open Tennis recordings successfully made.

My network consists of a primary Netgear Nighthawk R7800 router, and six Netgear switches (GS105 and GS108) around the house. All CAT6 ethernet cable run throughout the house... I don't use wireless except for my phone and on rare occasion one of my laptops. Two desktop machines (both Win7 HTPC) are on 24/7, and two laptops (Lenovo P70 and Lenovo W530, both running Win10) are on occasionally, typically via wired ethernet but occasionally wireless. NIC in all the machines is Intel (not Realtek or other). All machines are at latest Windows Update levels as are all drivers and software products.

This has been going on for me for at least three months now. Prior to that I had 100% reliable performance from ALL machines forever. Never saw one such "freeze" symptom ever, until about 3 months ago. I never thought about reliability when recording five different Olympics 2-week periods with extremely busy recorder activity day and night on multiple channels at once, and also watching recordings on TV while multiple new recordings were going on. Same hardware, for years... but three months ago it suddenly started freezing.

Fingers crossed that my brand new M910t HTPC (now alone on the network) remains up and operative all this week while I'm away.

 

[Aardvarkly]

You have offered a huge amount of info that should surely be helpful for others trying to diagnose the root of the problem. My random blackouts started mid December. In common with your system I use Malwarebytes on an Asus P8Z77-V that happens to have a Hauppauge TV tuner card (fitted but not used). There is a W7 laptop downstream of our router but that has no problems. Both devices are used wireless all the time. I don't use Media Centre. I have been reading dozens of posts about this problem and searching for a common link. So far, inconclusive.

 

[johnhoh]

My "freeze" symptoms go back before the mid-December....

If you have an extensive home lan setup you might have a bad cable or port in there somewhere, maybe with an intermittent short in it, and it wrecks havoc on the router and everything connected to the network. Hate to say it, but it might be somewhere in your home lan wiring. It could also be a bad lan adapter. I would try physically disconnecting all lan cables from the router and just run wireless for a bit on those machines you can. Note that if you have a particular machine powered off BUT its lan cable is crossed over or has a short in it, the router is being affected even though the machine is off. I had an intermittent issue a few years ago that I could not figure out for months until one day I was in the bios and I saw that the LAN speed displayed there was only 10mbps which meant that the physical connection was mucked up somehow and the bios could only negotiate 10mbps with the router, so I knew I had a lan hardware problem. After swapping out all the cables and the switch I knew it had to be a bad motherboard lan adapter so I got a new pci lan adapter and all was well after that. The point of all this is that physical hardware failures cause intermittent symptoms that are a bear to figure out.

 

[wither 2]

You have offered a huge amount of info that should surely be helpful for others trying to diagnose the root of the problem. My random blackouts started mid December. In common with your system I use Malwarebytes on an Asus P8Z77-V that happens to have a Hauppauge TV tuner card (fitted but not used). There is a W7 laptop downstream of our router but that has no problems. Both devices are used wireless all the time. I don't use Media Centre. I have been reading dozens of posts about this problem and searching for a common link. So far, inconclusive.

Did you try uninstalling Malwarebytes?

Also, I hope that dsperber will keep us informed about any other freezes since rolling back malwarebytes. It seems to have helped.

 

[dsperber]

Well... the best laid plans of mice and men...

Naturally, when I left LA this morning the downstairs M910t computer was working fine. As I said I had turned off the upstairs computer just to eliminate any possibility of "active" contribution to a network-related anomaly that might aggravate things. Yes, it still had all of its connections still plugged in including the ethernet cable (actually it has TWO ethernet cables connected to its two NICs), so yes potentially there might still be unexpected traffic coming from it, but I didn't think it was critical.

And besides, the new M910t worked beautifully yesterday! Recorded about 12 hours of Austraiian Open, recorded six other scheduled programs (including situations where three at once were being recorded), allowed me watch TV on two WMC extender/HDTV nodes (while multiple recordings were going on), allowed me to work hard on the PC (while multiple recordings were going on), I honestly thought it looked very good.

So now I just arrive in NY, set up my laptop, and try to connect remotely to the M910t (through RealVNC which is my remote connection method of choice). No dice. No response.

I then opened Team Viewer, which is my secondary fallback remote connection method, and the M910t was shown as "alive and theoretically available". This wouldn't happen if the computer were actually in a true "dead/frozen" state, so I suspected it might simply be "unresponsive" (e.g. if I had been physically there and jiggled the mouse that nothing would happen). I then tried to actuallty connect through Team Viewer, but no luck. And then the "alive" status changed to "not alive".

For all I know it was alive all day, and then instantly upon my attempt to connect through RealVNC did it drop off. There's no way of telling really. Actually, there probably is. Instead of running my screen saver so that I have no idea what time the clock shows (at the last instant before the freeze), I guess I could just leave the monitor on all the time (although I hate to do that). I'm going to be away for a week and didn't want to leave it on, nor did I want to power off the monitor (as I didn't know if maybe the freeze was tied to unavailability of video output).

Anyway, I have a friend going over now to re-boot the machine, as I want it to be back up for TV recordings while I'm away, at least as long as it can remain operational. Jeez... this is a BRAND NEW machine, to replace the one that died because I blew it up pushing/holding POWER to recover from freezes.

Bottom line: it's obviously not "solved" by reverting to a back-level Malwarebytes, although perhaps that did help somewhat (I'm not convinced). Even my upstairs PC exhibits long runs of non-freeze, giving me false hope. This convinces me it is NOT really the motherboard that is failing after all (and this machine is less than 2 years old, so nothing is "old"), but again something else external and intermittent if it's a hardware issue. Or software that I'm running, or some Windows update within the past three months, or my LAN setup (which in addition to the six Netgear switches also includes two Netgear routers WNDR4000 and WNDR4300v2 running in "access point mode" to provide WiFi to far locations around the house which cannot be served adequately by my main R7800 router in the bedroom). I don't believe there is anything wrong with the CAT6 ethernet cabling around the house.

Again... this very setup has been working 100% reliably since 2010, with improvements and additions over the years. It's only something that's changed in the past three months which is causing this.

And obviously, since there are plenty of others who are tearing their hair out chasing the same intermittency and freezes, there most likely is something "universal" which is at the root of this. Didn't the entire universe just come through a Meltdown/Sceptre change to firmware/BIOS and Windows updates? Isn't that significant?