Safest Way to Clone Windows 7 Volume for Dual Booting

[mjf]

I now also have a Disk Signature collision on the system, which has taken my destination disk offline. Although I can force it back online, my principal audio apps on the source drive are now crashing regularly.

Maybe I screwed up and missed some of the advice in the preceding 7 pages of posts, but I cannot believe this type of operation needs to be so complex and potentially destructive.

Jules, I haven't read through all of the responses, but if you did as you originally proposed: clone the partition AND the MBR, then you are also cloning the disk signature since it is in the MBR/track 0. This is how you get this signature conflict. You have a couple of options:

1. Don't clone the MBR
2. Do a sector level clone of the whole disk. You would need to save the data in the partitions you wish to keep, then recreate them and restore the data. When a new partition is created on your destination drive, it will get a new signature. or
3. Change the disk signature: How to Change the Disk Signature of a Drive Without Losing Existing Data or Reformatting (howtohaven.com). Though I don't think you would want to take this path - I believe you might then have to hack into the registry to change the signature there for the mounted device, but probably not - windows will probably see all of the partitions on the drive as new volumes without drive letters, and assign them letters.


- Gene

I saw the article referred to above some time ago and when the author of the article states:
"Remember my disclaimer above: I really don't know what I'm talking about here: do it at your own risk."
You should tread with extreme caution.

The disk signature is 4 bytes towards the end of the 512 byte MBR. In Windows 7 (& Vista I believe) it plays a much more significant role and is indeed an entry in the registry. Third party applications sometimes use it for authentication purposes as well.

 

[GeneO]

Hi Gene

The issue I have is a) the MBR on this drive is probably corrupt - I couldn't boot into it after I cloned FROM it to my current OS - so somehow that needs to be fixed, plus the posts above aren't totally clear on whether the MBR should be cloned or not. b) I'm told that some applications cause problems if they don't recognize the Disk Signature, hence why I copied it.

Clearly if I do it again, I won't copy the Disk signature, although that's already done. I'm truly grateful to everybody here for the guidance and suggestions, but the fact that this amount of information has still not resulted in an absolutely clear method for doing this relatively simple operation safely can only suggest that Windows OS'es just don't like doing this.

I hate to say it, (and I am anything but a Mac lover) but on my Mac Pro, I just clone the partition and select it - no MBR and Disk signature worries. It just works. On PC it seems the only way to do this safely is to start wiping disks or work only with identical hardware, which seems kind of anachronistic in the 21st century.

Sorry for the grumpy tone. After all the preparation and trying to get a clear and concise modus operandi, this has become a saga I could really have done without.

Jules

I understand it is unclear what to do with it and that copying it sounded like the right path. Just pointing out why you are getting the conflict.

I don't think there are many applications (besides volume shadow copy and windows) that use the disk signature. When I did a sector level disk clone, it created a new signature and all of my applications run fine.

Most applications use the Disk volume id (which is distinct from the volume label and the signature) for licensing and the like, not the disk signature. The disk volume id can be the same for two disks, but not the signature as it gets associated with drive letters (and indirectly directory letters referencing the drive letters). In general when you clone an OS you want the volume ID unchanged to avoid potential licensing problems.

If you don;t copy the MBR, I expect you would need to do something like and MBR repair to get it operational. Never been there so I am unsure.

Don't blame you for being grumpy! Twas much simpler in XP (but I wouldn't go back)

Gene

 

[gregrocker]

Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?

 

[GeneO]

Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?

I think he wanted to preserve some of the partitions on the drive he is cloning to. Acronis clone only does complete disks.

 

[mjf]

"This quote could be relevant to the discussion:
Source: "Acronis True Image WD Edition", 2000-2010, pp.48

When MBR recovery is chosen, the "Recover disk signature" box will appear in the bottom left corner at the next step. Recovering disk signature may be desirable due to the following reasons:
1. Acronis True Image WD Edition creates scheduled tasks using the signature of the source hard disk. If you recover the same disk signature, you don't need to re-create or edit the tasks created previously.
2. Some installed applications use disk signature for licensing and other purposes.
3. If you use Windows Restore Points, they will be lost when the disk signature is not recovered.
4. In addition, recovering disk signature allows to recover VSS snapshots used by Windows Vista and Windows 7's "Previous Versions" feature.
If the box is unselected, Acronis True Image WD Edition generates a new disk signature for the recovered drive. This may be needed when you use an image backup not for disaster recovery but for cloning your Windows Vista hard drive to another one. Trying to boot Windows after cloning with both drives connected will result in a problem. During Windows booting, its loader checks the disk signatures of all the connected drives, and if it finds two identical disk signatures, the loader changes the signature of the second disk, which would be the clone disk. Once this happens, the clone disk would not be able to boot up independently of the original disk, because the MountedDevices fields in the clone's registry reference the disk signature of the original disk, which will not be available if the original disk is disconnected."

The section of the same reference:
14.3.6 Cloning with Manual Partitions
may also be of interest

 

[gregrocker]

Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?

I think he wanted to preserve some of the partitions on the drive he is cloning to. Acronis clone only does complete disks.

The free WD and Seagate Acronis editions as well as Acronis True Image 10+ allow selective partition imaging as well as restore.

 

[GeneO]

Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?

I think he wanted to preserve some of the partitions on the drive he is cloning to. Acronis clone only does complete disks.

The free WD and Seagate Acronis editions as well as Acronis True Image 10+ allow selective partition imaging as well as restore.

Partition image backup isn't the same as cloning. Cloning is disk to disk. Those are the terms Acronis uses. You said True Image clone, which means disk to disk.

 

[Night Hawk]

Well since no one was interested in listening earlier I will repeat a few things here about dual booting when a drive image is restored onto a second drive. Acronis wasn't used to restore the source drive but to unpack an image of the first onto the second since restoring the full system image onto a second saw the second drive trash the first drive's ability to boot into 7.

Remember what I found that worked here was by "trial and error" only while restoring a full image made with the option seen in the 7 Backup & Restore to the 1st drive has worked flawlessly after numerous restorations. The dual boot with the second drive came about when Acronis placed the image of the first onto the second where no clash was seen when adding the new entry into the BCD.

Both options can easily see an image with all partitions and mbr information intact while Acronis clones and unpacks disk images onto secondary drives without errors most of the time. Note "most of the time"! I've had a few trials with that. The best move however was to start off with a clean install on the new drive and restoring a backup made of the user files and settings to avoid "headaches" starting fresh on the new 500gb.

Once everything is all set on the new host/boot drive you can created an image for restoration to that drive alone with the full system image feature found the most reliable. As for a dual boot with a second drive seeing an image of the first restored that's where the 3rd party program comes in to avoid the disk signature hassle.
(Gee I was glad I made that image with the 7 option when the first tests "trashed the works"!)

Acronis will easily see a full clone over to an identical drive as found here. If you were replacing one drive with an identical replacement there you go! For already having boot issues with the source drive? Not Good! With the new drive not matching the solution is as follows.

1)Use 3rd drive to store Windows Easy Transfer tool's backup of files and settings for your programs

2)isolate new host drive to see clean install of everything! (yes that will take time but works the best)

3)once new drive is set to go create your safe guard image for any emergency. http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/663-backup-complete-computer-create-image-backup.html

4)create a totally separate second image of new host for restoration on "test drive"! Note the word "test"! When using Acronis you can remain booted in the host drive's installation there and do other things while that image is being unpacked onto a second drive.

5)Test secondary drive's ability to boot on it's own once the image(Acronis) is on.

6)Once found that the drive is bootable you can add a boot entry with EasyBCD to select working in the test drive's restoration or load the default fresh 7 install.

7) Ability to edit or retrieve files from either drive image? 1) For image made by 7, http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/24771-system-image-extract-files-using-disk-management.html

2)For image made by Acronis the "Tools & Utilities" section features the option for mounting an image it is used to create as a second C drive to be seen in Windows Explorer.

 

[Trailerman]

Sorry for the lack of response - was away walking in the Lakes the last 4 days.

Will digest the posts above and then decide how to proceed.

Greg - the reason I created an image and then restored was because this was the recommended course of action in a couple of posts. I also felt that breaking the operation down into 2 discreet stages (as opposed to a single cloning operation) increased the chance of success and at very least the ease with which reasons for failure could be diagnosed.

Night Hawk - I do listen, and I do read your posts. I don't always find them terribly easy to be follow, I have to confess, but I do read them, and I have taken all of you valuable input on board. I'll continue to do so as I try and resolve the current situation.

Jules

 

[gregrocker]

I think he wanted to preserve some of the partitions on the drive he is cloning to. Acronis clone only does complete disks.

The free WD and Seagate Acronis editions as well as Acronis True Image 10+ allow selective partition imaging as well as restore.

Partition image backup isn't the same as cloning. Cloning is disk to disk. Those are the terms Acronis uses. You said True Image clone, which means disk to disk.

Acronis True Image 10 is the Product name. And their cloning apps allow selective disk-to-disk partition cloning as well as imaging, including in the free edition.

 

[Night Hawk]

Sorry for the lack of response - was away walking in the Lakes the last 4 days.

Will digest the posts above and then decide how to proceed.

Greg - the reason I created an image and then restored was because this was the recommended course of action in a couple of posts. I also felt that breaking the operation down into 2 discreet stages (as opposed to a single cloning operation) increased the chance of success and at very least the ease with which reasons for failure could be diagnosed.

Night Hawk - I do listen, and I do read your posts. I don't always find them terribly easy to be follow, I have to confess, but I do read them, and I have taken all of you valuable input on board. I'll continue to do so as I try and resolve the current situation.

Jules

They won't be in the sense that any "project" other then simply restoring your main drive onto a replacement drive as far as setting up any dual boot will take finding out what works through trial and error. You'll have a few of those moments when something doesn't work if you decide to try any of that!

When cloning or restoring images there's never any 100% sure fire solution always guaranteed to work. One of the first images made with the full version of Acronis failed to restore the host drive here on one occasion where it had to see the 7 option's image restored. Fortunately one was made with that first.

It doesn't bring the drive signature along with it when creating an image of one drive for use on another making it the choice for seeing this type of dual boot. As far as the live cd recovery option that failed to even see the pair of Sata III drives installed along with the imaged stored them making that option obsolete.

 

[Trailerman]

Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?

Hi Greg

Can I just clarify what you're advising here?

I was under the impression that your previous advice was always to unplug the original drive when creating clones of OS partitions, in order to avoid the sacred original becoming compromised in any way.

Just so I'm clear, are you suggesting that I should actually clone direct from one drive to the other, which obvioulsy will mean I need both drives attached during the cloning process? I'm happy to give that a go, if that's what you're suggesting, but it seems to conflict with what I've been told previously.

Many thanks

Jules

 

[Trailerman]

It doesn't bring the drive signature along with it when creating an image of one drive for use on another making it the choice for seeing this type of dual boot. As far as the live cd recovery option that failed to even see the pair of Sata III drives installed along with the imaged stored them making that option obsolete.

So, if I'm understanding correclty, if multiple OS volumes are going to be used in a dual boot situation, the disk signature should very definitely NOT be copied. Can you clarify if the MBR should be copied - I have an option in Acronis' image restore manager to a) restore the MBR to the destination patition, b) copy the disk signature and c) do both.

Many thanks

Jules

 

[Trailerman]

I am currently in the process of copying the other partitions on my destination disk, onto a different drive, so I can wipe this drive and make sure no disk errors or other issues are in play.

Can anyone advise on the best way of wiping the disk and MBR on this drive (preferably without a low level format - last time I did this it took days) and then verifying there are no errors? Is it best to create one big partition and then run chkdsk?

After that I will retry restoring the backed up image of my source OS volume. If that fails I'll do a clean Win7 install and then retry restoring the backed up image. I'm assuming any image restore/clone operation I perform should be WITHOUT MBR or disk signatures being copied, but any confirmation of this would be helpful.

After that I will try and set up a dual boot, either using the F12 boot key or Wiindows7's dual boot capabilities, which worked fine a few weeks ago when I was dual booting between Windows7 and XP.

Jules

 

[mjf]

It doesn't bring the drive signature along with it when creating an image of one drive for use on another making it the choice for seeing this type of dual boot. As far as the live cd recovery option that failed to even see the pair of Sata III drives installed along with the imaged stored them making that option obsolete.

So, if I'm understanding correclty, if multiple OS volumes are going to be used in a dual boot situation, the disk signature should very definitely NOT be copied. Can you clarify if the MBR should be copied - I have an option in Acronis' image restore manager to a) restore the MBR to the destination patition, b) copy the disk signature and c) do both.

Many thanks

Jules

You should have seen this if you read the information I forwarded from Acronis documentation.

 

[Trailerman]

Sorry MJF - you're absolutely right, I missed that reference.

I'm now wiping the destination disk and will try restoring without the disk signature.

Jules

 

[gregrocker]

You can use the Win7 DVD to wipe the HD. Use Clean All command: http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/91339-ssd-hdd-optimize-windows-reinstallation.html

You can also use free Partition Wizard bootable CD Wipe function.,

Writing one set of zeroes takes about an hour per 320gb.

 

[Trailerman]

Thanks Greg

Wiping and running chkdsk didn't solve the problem unfortunately. When I retried the image restore I still got 'Recover Opearation Failed' even though this time I wasn't restoring the MBR or disk signature.

I may now try the direct cloning route you suggested.

Jules

 

[gregrocker]

I would use the auto setting unless you've got to make changes to partition sizes.

It will adjust everything proportionately to take HD size differences into account.

Works very well.

If not, then test the HD using maker's diag/repair full CD scan.

 

[Night Hawk]

You wouldn't have had any need to wipe the new drive by either a direct clone between the 200gb source drive and the new 500gb or restoring an image made of the first. For the option of creating an image of a drive you are replacing you would need the mbr/boot information as part of the package to insure the destination drive is bootable as a stand alone OS drive.

The advise I have to repeat is that of recommending a clean install on the new drive from the start keeping the 200gb online until the new one is situated the way you want it with all programs and settings back on. From there you create a new full system image in order to be able to restore the entire system in one shot if needed.

The option to create a second image with Acronis would be for duplication of the new 500gb clean install seen there. That would avoid trashing the 500gb drive's clean install overriding that due to the disk signature id the 7 option adds while Acronis apparently doesn't.

Remember the key phrase for any "test environment" I tried to emphasize was "do at your own risk" since there is no 100% sure fire method at work when considering a dual boot like this. This is why you first needed to see a full image of the new host drive made up first in case of any .....