Windows Update svchost high CPU and RAM usage

radugb

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Howdy all! As the title suggests, I am having issues with windows update.

It started only two weeks ago, when I started up and my CPU monitor said something was running high. After trial and error, I found if I stopped the Windows Updater service, the system went back to normal.

Right now it's taking 13%-20% CPU and 2GB of memory when the updater is active.

I've tried all the suggested fixes from the other threads: reinstalled KB3102810, ran sfc scannow (log attached...but in RAR version, ZIP version was 110MB). I've tried running updates and restoring hidden updates. I can access Windows Update, and it displays one recommended and 2 optional updates to install, but when I try to install those updates, Windows Update just hangs at the downloading updates status (0% downloaded after 24 hours). I ran the SURT, it crashed my system after an hour...ran out of memory...:sarc:

Suggestions?
 

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Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
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Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
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Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
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Intel PM55 Alienware
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8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
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AMD Radeon HD 5870M
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Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
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1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
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Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
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Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
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Notepal Cooler Master U3
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Hi radugb & welcome to sevenforums. I'll try to help you.
Have your read & tried Windows Update - Reset?
Have you read this article, from 5 days ago? click here
Try running SFCFix.exe by Niemiro & if it completes, post the log that appears on your desktop.
 

My Computer My Computer

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Win 7 Home Premium x64/Linux Lite 2.6 x64
Computer type
Laptop
OS
Win 7 Home Premium x64/Linux Lite 2.6 x64
After several minutes, your CBS.log finally opened. You have numerous entries:

2016-02-14 02:37:38, Info CBS Failed to internally open package. [HRESULT = 0x800f0805 - CBS_E_INVALID_PACKAGE]
2016-02-14 02:37:38, Info CBS Session: 30500627_3109842473 initialized by client WindowsUpdateAgent.

And unrepaired/corrupt files:

2016-02-19 23:03:49, Info CSI 00000541 [SR] Could not reproject corrupted file [ml:520{260},l:46{23}]"\??\C:\Windows\System32"\[l:22{11}]"fontext.dll"; source file in store is also corrupted

failing hard drive? have you run disk check from administrator command prompt? CHKDSK /r

Hopefully, we'll eventually be able to get SURT to complete & produce log.
 

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Win 7 Home Premium x64/Linux Lite 2.6 x64
Computer type
Laptop
OS
Win 7 Home Premium x64/Linux Lite 2.6 x64
Hi radugb & welcome to sevenforums. I'll try to help you.
Have your read & tried Windows Update - Reset?
Have you read this article, from 5 days ago? click here
Try running SFCFix.exe by Niemiro & if it completes, post the log that appears on your desktop.
Thank you for your reply.

I will apply the Windows Update - Reset tonight. I read the article about KB3114717. It does not apply to me since I am running Office 365 with Excel and Word 2016. If the Windows Update - Reset does not work, I will try running the SFCFix.exe.
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
Motherboard
Intel PM55 Alienware
Memory
8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 5870M
Sound Card
Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
Monitor(s) Displays
1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
Screen Resolution
Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
PSU
220W Flextronic
Case
N/a
Cooling
Notepal Cooler Master U3
Keyboard
Standard
Mouse
Synaptics Touchpad, Razer Orochi
Internet Speed
Cox Internet
Antivirus
Kaspersky
Browser
Firefox
After several minutes, your CBS.log finally opened. You have numerous entries:

2016-02-14 02:37:38, Info CBS Failed to internally open package. [HRESULT = 0x800f0805 - CBS_E_INVALID_PACKAGE]
2016-02-14 02:37:38, Info CBS Session: 30500627_3109842473 initialized by client WindowsUpdateAgent.

And unrepaired/corrupt files:

2016-02-19 23:03:49, Info CSI 00000541 [SR] Could not reproject corrupted file [ml:520{260},l:46{23}]"\??\C:\Windows\System32"\[l:22{11}]"fontext.dll"; source file in store is also corrupted

failing hard drive? have you run disk check from administrator command prompt? CHKDSK /r

Hopefully, we'll eventually be able to get SURT to complete & produce log.
You can ignore the corrupted fontext.dll message. I modded both it and my shell32.dll files many years back with custom folder icons. I know it shows up as corrupt, but they really are not. Not sure about the "Failed to internally open package". Will the Windows Update-Reset delete all the update packages or do I need to do that manually?
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
Motherboard
Intel PM55 Alienware
Memory
8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 5870M
Sound Card
Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
Monitor(s) Displays
1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
Screen Resolution
Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
PSU
220W Flextronic
Case
N/a
Cooling
Notepal Cooler Master U3
Keyboard
Standard
Mouse
Synaptics Touchpad, Razer Orochi
Internet Speed
Cox Internet
Antivirus
Kaspersky
Browser
Firefox
I ran the Windows Update - Reset full patch. No dice, when I go into Windows Update again, TrustedInstaller and svchost both jump to 16% CPU usage and increase in memory until the system memory is full.
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
Motherboard
Intel PM55 Alienware
Memory
8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 5870M
Sound Card
Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
Monitor(s) Displays
1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
Screen Resolution
Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
PSU
220W Flextronic
Case
N/a
Cooling
Notepal Cooler Master U3
Keyboard
Standard
Mouse
Synaptics Touchpad, Razer Orochi
Internet Speed
Cox Internet
Antivirus
Kaspersky
Browser
Firefox

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insid...E5300 dual core3gbNvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
medionl/Aspire 6930G/acer x55a
OS
W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insider ring
CPU
E5300 dual core
Motherboard
medion MS7366
Memory
3gb
Graphics Card(s)
Nvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Monitor(s) Displays
avixc
Internet Speed
n (isp resticted to 72)
Antivirus
mse/pands
Browser
palemoon
Other Info
Belkin Fd7050 n USB using Railink RT2870 drivers, more upto date
I came looking for threads about the same issue. Found this one immediately!

These pages might be helpful:

How to fix: Svchost.exe (netsvcs) memory leak or high CPU usage problems - wintips.org - Windows Tips & How-tos

And this, mentioned in the above, for which I had high hopes:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=47351

When I downloaded and tried to run that fix, Windows told me it was already installed. Well, my CPU is still highjacked by Windows Update, so I have disabled the Windows Update service. That stopped the CPU usage immediately, as with the O/P.

EDIT: Roy posted at the same time as me,as above, so will follow his link and see if this helps....
 

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Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bitIntel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit
CPU
Intel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz
Motherboard
Asus H97I-PLUS
Memory
16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz
Graphics Card(s)
8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Monitor(s) Displays
HannsG 28" & Dell 24"
Screen Resolution
1920x1200
Hard Drives
1 x 2TB Samsung Evo 860 SSD
2 x 500GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD
PSU
CORSAIR 650W CS SERIES
Case
Thermaltake Core V1 Mini ITX Cube
Cooling
NOCTUA NH-L12
Browser
Firefox
Other Info
Custom PC used for X-Plane 11
The batch file seems to have fixed the issue! I've only rebooted a couple of times, but looks good - after startup 'settles down', CPU usage now shows 0% instead of 15% and growing...

Thank you. Will post back if this is a flash in the pan! :)
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bitIntel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit
CPU
Intel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz
Motherboard
Asus H97I-PLUS
Memory
16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz
Graphics Card(s)
8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Monitor(s) Displays
HannsG 28" & Dell 24"
Screen Resolution
1920x1200
Hard Drives
1 x 2TB Samsung Evo 860 SSD
2 x 500GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD
PSU
CORSAIR 650W CS SERIES
Case
Thermaltake Core V1 Mini ITX Cube
Cooling
NOCTUA NH-L12
Browser
Firefox
Other Info
Custom PC used for X-Plane 11
OK, third time (reboot) unlucky. My CPU now runs 100% after startup until I manage (system pretty unresponsive) to get into Services and stop the Windows Update service. I am leaving it disabled for now./:(
 

My Computer My Computer

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Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bitIntel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit
CPU
Intel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz
Motherboard
Asus H97I-PLUS
Memory
16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz
Graphics Card(s)
8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Monitor(s) Displays
HannsG 28" & Dell 24"
Screen Resolution
1920x1200
Hard Drives
1 x 2TB Samsung Evo 860 SSD
2 x 500GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD
PSU
CORSAIR 650W CS SERIES
Case
Thermaltake Core V1 Mini ITX Cube
Cooling
NOCTUA NH-L12
Browser
Firefox
Other Info
Custom PC used for X-Plane 11

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 7601 ...AMD C-60 APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics4.00 GBAMD Radeon HD 6290 Graphics
Computer type
Laptop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
ASUS
OS
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 7601 Multiprocessor Free Service Pack 1
CPU
AMD C-60 APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics
Motherboard
ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. X501U
Memory
4.00 GB
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 6290 Graphics
Sound Card
(1) AMD High Definition Audio Device (2) Realtek High Defi
Screen Resolution
1366 x 768 x 32 bits (4294967296 colors) @ 60 Hz
Hard Drives
Hitachi HTS545050A7E380 SATA Disk Device
Antivirus
Comodo CIS & FW, SecureAplus App Whitelisting, Threatfire
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Cyberfox 64bit, Opera 64bit, Airfox
Other Info
Spy-The-Spy, HitmanPro.Alert, Norton Connect Safe, MJRegWatcher, BitDefender TrafficLight, Voodoo Shield, Zemana AntiMalware
Looks complex! I think for now I am going to leave the update service disabled and run Windows Update manually as and when. It's always seemed to me that Windows Update usually creates more problems on my PC than it fixes (though yes, I do realise, the problems are most often much more visible than the 'behind the scenes' fixes!)...
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bitIntel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit
CPU
Intel Core i7-4790K CPU @ 4.5GHz
Motherboard
Asus H97I-PLUS
Memory
16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz
Graphics Card(s)
8GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1070
Monitor(s) Displays
HannsG 28" & Dell 24"
Screen Resolution
1920x1200
Hard Drives
1 x 2TB Samsung Evo 860 SSD
2 x 500GB Samsung Evo 850 SSD
PSU
CORSAIR 650W CS SERIES
Case
Thermaltake Core V1 Mini ITX Cube
Cooling
NOCTUA NH-L12
Browser
Firefox
Other Info
Custom PC used for X-Plane 11
Do you have KB3022345, if so please uninstall it, it will be replaced by a newer patched version.
As the other error is related to the windows update engine, please follow the instructions from this link,
http://www.sevenforums.com/windows-...ne-activation-issue-posting-instructions.html

Roy
Uninstalled KB3022345. Did not make a difference. I tried running the SURT tool again. Still did not go thru. It hangs at installing the Hotfix during install and eventually runs the system out of memory.

Not sure about the link you posted. It contains nothing in it for Windows Update, just Windows activation.
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
Motherboard
Intel PM55 Alienware
Memory
8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 5870M
Sound Card
Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
Monitor(s) Displays
1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
Screen Resolution
Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
PSU
220W Flextronic
Case
N/a
Cooling
Notepal Cooler Master U3
Keyboard
Standard
Mouse
Synaptics Touchpad, Razer Orochi
Internet Speed
Cox Internet
Antivirus
Kaspersky
Browser
Firefox
IT will do, removes a lot of KNOWN incorrect errors within SFC, thats why MS patched it.
As for the link run the MGAdiag, it produces a report including the Windows update version your currently running.

Roy
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insid...E5300 dual core3gbNvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
medionl/Aspire 6930G/acer x55a
OS
W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insider ring
CPU
E5300 dual core
Motherboard
medion MS7366
Memory
3gb
Graphics Card(s)
Nvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Monitor(s) Displays
avixc
Internet Speed
n (isp resticted to 72)
Antivirus
mse/pands
Browser
palemoon
Other Info
Belkin Fd7050 n USB using Railink RT2870 drivers, more upto date
IT will do, removes a lot of KNOWN incorrect errors within SFC, thats why MS patched it.
As for the link run the MGAdiag, it produces a report including the Windows update version your currently running.

Roy
You will have to reword that sentence for me. I could not understand it.

I ran the MGAdiag. Which tab shows the Windows Update version I'm currently running?
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
Motherboard
Intel PM55 Alienware
Memory
8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 5870M
Sound Card
Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
Monitor(s) Displays
1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
Screen Resolution
Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
PSU
220W Flextronic
Case
N/a
Cooling
Notepal Cooler Master U3
Keyboard
Standard
Mouse
Synaptics Touchpad, Razer Orochi
Internet Speed
Cox Internet
Antivirus
Kaspersky
Browser
Firefox
My system does something similar but it will automatically finish whatever it is doing after about
30 minutes or so, and CPU and memory levels will decrease to something normal.
I have my WU set to let me know about updates , but let me chose whether to download and install them.
I can actually download and install updates consistently, but sometimes you will get odd symptoms like
you go to download and install any update and the loading bar will stay at 0% and 0 KB for
5 minutes and then suddenly install the update as normal.

I've checked the sfc/scannow and everything checks out find, same with chkdsk.
I'm almost 100% certain that I have NO malware of any kind be it trojans, rootkits, ect. I have
MSE, and I use the program between my ears to keep things free of such things. :p:geek:

I hate to play around with it because it seems from my experience that trying to fix WU ends up creating other problems.
 

My Computer My Computer

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win 7 home premium 64 bitcore i5 7606 gbati 5450
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
hp pavilion 6680t
OS
win 7 home premium 64 bit
CPU
core i5 760
Motherboard
iona (from MSI)
Memory
6 gb
Graphics Card(s)
ati 5450
Sound Card
real tek 888
*Bump
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
Motherboard
Intel PM55 Alienware
Memory
8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 5870M
Sound Card
Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
Monitor(s) Displays
1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
Screen Resolution
Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
PSU
220W Flextronic
Case
N/a
Cooling
Notepal Cooler Master U3
Keyboard
Standard
Mouse
Synaptics Touchpad, Razer Orochi
Internet Speed
Cox Internet
Antivirus
Kaspersky
Browser
Firefox
Still waiting for the report from that link

Roy
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insid...E5300 dual core3gbNvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
medionl/Aspire 6930G/acer x55a
OS
W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insider ring
CPU
E5300 dual core
Motherboard
medion MS7366
Memory
3gb
Graphics Card(s)
Nvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Monitor(s) Displays
avixc
Internet Speed
n (isp resticted to 72)
Antivirus
mse/pands
Browser
palemoon
Other Info
Belkin Fd7050 n USB using Railink RT2870 drivers, more upto date
Still waiting for the report from that link

Roy
I ran the MGAdiag. Which tab shows the Windows Update version I'm currently running?
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

Windows 7 Ultimate x64Intel Core i7-920xm8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAMAMD Radeon HD 5870M
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Alienware M17x R2
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
Intel Core i7-920xm
Motherboard
Intel PM55 Alienware
Memory
8GB Vengeance PC3-12800 DDR3 RAM
Graphics Card(s)
AMD Radeon HD 5870M
Sound Card
Sound Blaster Recon3D (USB)
Monitor(s) Displays
1920x1200 LCD, Sony Bravia 42" HDTV
Screen Resolution
Laptop LCD - 1920x1200, HDTV - 1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 840 256GB SSD (Boot Drive)
2 x Western Digital Scorpio Black HDDs - 1.36TB (RAID 0)
PSU
220W Flextronic
Case
N/a
Cooling
Notepal Cooler Master U3
Keyboard
Standard
Mouse
Synaptics Touchpad, Razer Orochi
Internet Speed
Cox Internet
Antivirus
Kaspersky
Browser
Firefox
ALL of it,
The link i gave you gives you the instructions on how to post it as well.

Roy
 

My Computer My Computer

At a glance

W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insid...E5300 dual core3gbNvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
medionl/Aspire 6930G/acer x55a
OS
W7 home premium 32bit/W7HP 64bit/w10 tp insider ring
CPU
E5300 dual core
Motherboard
medion MS7366
Memory
3gb
Graphics Card(s)
Nvidia Geforce 7100 Nforce 630i
Monitor(s) Displays
avixc
Internet Speed
n (isp resticted to 72)
Antivirus
mse/pands
Browser
palemoon
Other Info
Belkin Fd7050 n USB using Railink RT2870 drivers, more upto date
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