File Sorting Problem

[jambooger]

Ive just discovered a new problem. In Win XP All my Movie file clips were sorted by Name ie: Dandy, Dandy (1), Dandy (2). Now this dang Win 7 is sorting them Dandy (1), Dandy (2), Dandy. NOW the first clip is Last. How the heck could MS change sorting after years the first way. AHHHH!

 

[Lordbob75]

Well, simple solution is to add a 0 to the first one...

Other than that, I believe it has always been this way...

~Lordbob

 

[Dzomlija]

Ive just discovered a new problem. In Win XP All my Movie file clips were sorted by Name ie: Dandy, Dandy (1), Dandy (2). Now this dang Win 7 is sorting them Dandy (1), Dandy (2), Dandy. NOW the first clip is Last. How the heck could MS change sorting after years the first way. AHHHH!

My experience has been that XP sorted files incorrectly:

file1
file10
file11
file2
file3
file4
file5
file6
file7
file8
file9

Windows Vista and Windows 7 has fixed that, and now file sort properly, because it now also recognizes number in filenames as numbers, not just another character in the ASCII chart:

file1
file2
file3
file4
file5
file6
file7
file8
file9
file10
file11

 

[Bruce Gomes]

AFAIK there is simply a bug in Windows 7 sorting file names, and I'm astonished that it hasn't been brought to light before now. Here's a list of files in Windows 7;

C:\windowsbug\00000000.txt
C:\windowsbug\1.txt
C:\windowsbug\1B.txt
C:\windowsbug\2222222C.txt
C:\windowsbug\3333333A.txt
C:\windowsbug\5555555A.txt
C:\windowsbug\7777777B.txt
C:\windowsbug\11111111.txt
C:\windowsbug\22222222.txt
C:\windowsbug\33333333.txt
C:\windowsbug\44444444.txt
C:\windowsbug\66666666.txt
C:\windowsbug\00100000000.txt
C:\windowsbug\100000000.txt

Is there anyone who believes this is a correct or acceptable sort order? I can certify that I've worked on dozens of different systems over the past 50 years and never saw anything like this.

 

[gladson1976]

AFAIK there is simply a bug in Windows 7 sorting file names, and I'm astonished that it hasn't been brought to light before now. Here's a list of files in Windows 7;

C:\windowsbug\00000000.txt
C:\windowsbug\1.txt
C:\windowsbug\1B.txt
C:\windowsbug\2222222C.txt
C:\windowsbug\3333333A.txt
C:\windowsbug\5555555A.txt
C:\windowsbug\7777777B.txt
C:\windowsbug\11111111.txt
C:\windowsbug\22222222.txt
C:\windowsbug\33333333.txt
C:\windowsbug\44444444.txt
C:\windowsbug\66666666.txt
C:\windowsbug\00100000000.txt
C:\windowsbug\100000000.txt

Is there anyone who believes this is a correct or acceptable sort order? I can certify that I've worked on dozens of different systems over the past 50 years and never saw anything like this.

That is not a bug in Windows 7. The order is the same in Windows XP also.



EDIT: I'm not in my 7 machine right now. Will have to check it in the evening

 

[tw33k]

Just did a test and you can see mine sorts perfectly...

 

[Bruce Gomes]

In the heat of the moment I certainly did not make myself clear. It's not a bug, it's wrong in Windows 7, Vista and XP *by design*. Microsoft feels they wanted to try to make the sort intelligent, and everyone in the computer field feels they're dead wrong. There were some "not so trivial" registry changes one could make in prior releases to correct this, but I haven't seen anything so definitive in Windows 7 for correcting this design error. I have thousands of files with names similar to the ones I listed, and I simply can't find my files anymore since the order is so jumbled. More importantly, anyone who feels Windows is doing this correctly please examine my list of files above. Microsoft simply did not consider the horrendous ramifications of their sort - I repeat my question, does ANYONE feel the sorted list above is acceptable? Let me also note that there's not a single other computer system that would sort files in this manner - so is Microsoft saying they're right and every other operating system since the beginning of time is wrong? It simply boggles the mind that Microsoft would do this - and not provide an easy or (at least) properly documented way to undo this.
Renaming my files is not an option; software and scripts logically relate the files using the current naming conventions.

 

[Lordbob75]

In case you didn't notice, everyone else's files are sorted correctly.... Therefore you calling this deliberate is false.

~Lordbob

 

[guiLe]

I think a very simple solution is, just rename your file with same long character.
eg : file01, file02, file03 .. file99 or file0001, file0002, ... file9999
that's what I do ...

 

[Dzomlija]

The is noting wrong with the way Windows 7 is sorting the files. Allow me to explain, and perhaps you can stop making claims that are untrue. First, I want you to examine the following screenshot:



I recreated the files you are using to make your claim, and this is what I've discovered:

Windows Explorer will attempt to sort filenames using correct alphabetical sorting, and also attempts to extrapolate numbers in the file names. In other words, it uses correct Alpha/Numeric sorting. If you look closely at your filenames as displayed in Windows Explorer, you will see that they are sorted in numerical order.

However, if you look at the same listing of files within the command prompt (sorted by name), then the listing is different. That is because the command line, and indeed older operating systems, don't correctly sort alphanumerically, they sort using the ASCII codes of the characters in the filenames. In ASCII, the numbers "0 - 9" are represented using the codes 48 - 57, while "a - z" is represented using 97 - 122, and "A - Z" are 65 - 90. This is why in the command line sort (using your example filenames) the file "22222222.txt" is listed before "222222C.txt".

I believe the sorting mechanisms of the Windows Explorer GUI are correct, as it distinguishes correctly between letters and numbers.

 

[Bruce Gomes]

Windows Incorrect File Sort

Thank you very much everyone for taking the time to respond. I may disagree, but I respect your responses. Nonetheless, do you really believe that this is the correct way to sort the files? Windows has it right and every other system has it wrong, including older Windows systems? Yes, I really do understand, Microsoft feels their way is better, and they are doing it intentionally, and hence, yes, THEY feel it's correct. Yes, I know how it works. Well, software I have depends on the order being the OTHER way it works on *every* other system. I haven't had anyone tell me that the list I sent with the new sort makes any sense. I also gave a similar lists to dozens of technical computer professionals (all 20+ years experience, all six figure salaries, all UNIX SA's, Windows SAs, systems programmers, DBAs) and none of them have been able to sort it like Microsoft sorts it - in fact most don't even believe me until they try it (I was even thrice accused of pulling an April Fool's joke on them). I have tens of thousands of files with this naming convention. Most of the files have numeric names, and some have the eighth character replaced by an alphabetic. I need the original order. Microsoft should provide a way to sort it as they always have, and as every other operating system sorts it, and not pretend they have a better way. For my list of files the Microsoft sort clearly makes no sense. If Microsoft has the audacity to insist on this new default, they should at least have the decency to provide a way to undo this mess. I've seen ways to update the registry with some versions of Windows to undo this sort methodology, but nothing definitive for Windows 7. So... that is simply what I seek; a way to update Windows 7 to return to a normal ASCII sort on file names, like every other system does it. Thanks!

 

[jambooger]

I AGREE. I couldnt have stated it better myself.

 

[Lordbob75]

Did you not read what Dzomlija said?

Windows sorts it by ASCII code number.....

Also, why does it matter what order the files are SORTED in? (admittedly I am not a programmer, this is a real question) Theoretically, you just call the file name in the program, and file path, why does sorting matter?

~Lordbob

 

[JimLewandowski]

Interesting someone brought this up.

W7 sorts:

jl0327a2010.csv
jl0327b2010.csv
jl01012010.csv
.
.
.
.
.
jl03272010.csv
.
.
.

Why are the jl0327a/b files at the top when they should be next to the jl03272010 below?

 

[pietchaki]

@Bruce Gomes: I think the sorting in you files is OK, cause "C:\windowsbug\00100000000.txt" (number value = 100.000.000) is grater than "C:\windowsbug\66666666.txt" (number value = 66.666.666)

But, can someone try to explain me why my files are sorted this way:
My folder of Images:


in this case, the sorting sistem "think" that number 2 is grater than 2.3... kinda shit.
in Windows XP and in my Ubuntu 10.04 its sorted like this:

img
img1
img2
img2.1
img2.2
img2.3
img3
img3.1
img3.1.1
img3.2
img4
img5
​

I think the sorting sistem read the first dot as the end of the file name, and then sort by the suffix, in this case ".1" is less then ".jpg".
This sorting sistem is the oly thing I don't like in Seven. Micro$$oft must fix that nonsense fail.

 

[pietchaki]

Interesting someone brought this up.

W7 sorts:

jl0327a2010.csv
jl0327b2010.csv
jl01012010.csv
.
.
.
.
.
jl03272010.csv
.
.
.

Why are the jl0327a/b files at the top when they should be next to the jl03272010 below?

Seven try to order by the number instead of ASCII code of each character, so 3.272.010 is Much higher than 327

it's part of the solution to resolve number sorting in this:

1
10
11
12
13
2
20
21
3
4
5
51
.
.
.

​

 

[Bruce Gomes]

Importance of Files Sorted in ASCII Sequence

Lordbob inquired;

Also, why does it matter what order the files are SORTED in? (admittedly I am not a programmer, this is a real question) Theoretically, you just call the file name in the program, and file path, why does sorting matter?

Two reasons;
1) Programatically, many programs read through thousands of files, not just one file, and you supply the file system that contains them. Programs will often assume they can access the files in ASCII name order (or EBCDIC order on other systems!) or more importantly requires the operating system to supply them in ASCII order when the call a function to supply a list of file names or simply when they read the list of files. This is the way some utilities worked, and it's the way some older "pre-relational" database systems worked. Think of each file as one record in the database.
2) From a non-programming perspective, my files under ASCII sort are in perfect order, and logically I often need to access multiple files that would normally be adjacent. If they are not adjacent I have no way of knowing if the other files even exist to know to look for them (they don't have to exist, the files are all logically related and all optional) If a file system has ten files this doesn't matter much, if it has ten thousand files it's simply a catastrophe.

 

[Lordbob75]

Lordbob inquired;

Also, why does it matter what order the files are SORTED in? (admittedly I am not a programmer, this is a real question) Theoretically, you just call the file name in the program, and file path, why does sorting matter?

Two reasons;
1) Programatically, many programs read through thousands of files, not just one file, and you supply the file system that contains them. Programs will often assume they can access the files in ASCII name order (or EBCDIC order on other systems!) or more importantly requires the operating system to supply them in ASCII order when the call a function to supply a list of file names or simply when they read the list of files. This is the way some utilities worked, and it's the way some older "pre-relational" database systems worked. Think of each file as one record in the database.
2) From a non-programming perspective, my files under ASCII sort are in perfect order, and logically I often need to access multiple files that would normally be adjacent. If they are not adjacent I have no way of knowing if the other files even exist to know to look for them (they don't have to exist, the files are all logically related and all optional) If a file system has ten files this doesn't matter much, if it has ten thousand files it's simply a catastrophe.

That makes sense.

I was just curious.

~Lordbob

 

[SailorCharles]

Windows File Sort Out of Step

Did you not read what Dzomlija said?

Windows sorts it by ASCII code number.....

Also, why does it matter what order the files are SORTED in? (admittedly I am not a programmer, this is a real question) Theoretically, you just call the file name in the program, and file path, why does sorting matter?

~Lordbob

You asked "Why Does Sorting matter?"

This reply (I hope) will give you a working example why.

When working as a group which expects to exchange files there has to be agreement on a filenaming convention. That convention has to cater for a host of requirements (All well covered elswhere on the web and assumed knowledge as far this reply is concerned).

The files that are "exchanged" also serve as an "Audit Trail". Therefore the use of PDFs provide a reasonable choice of "that which was sent".

I first produce the document in Word and then I "Save and Send" / "Create PDF/XPS Document. This produces two files on my drive with identical file names differing only by their .xxx extnsions.

The Word version is no longer required ~ the PDF is "the record to keep" . . . . Before win7 "new improved" sorting both files fell together on the screen. Now they are widely separated which makes it difficult easily to spot which one to delete when conducting a "clean-up".

Furthermore, the recipient(s) save the files and they appear in an appropriate order on their machines too. (Except if they have the misfortune to have win7)

(Please see the edited screen shot ~ as you may gather, the documents relate to a Club activity and we use various "Forms" to pass information.)

Red Herring warning ~ Please do not suggest that we rename our files . . . . What we have works across a number of platforms.

(The hidden request is "How can this perverse sort be "unwound" in win7?")

Thank You
Sid

 

[SailorCharles]

I may well have found an answer to this perverse issue.

Many thanks are owed to:

Windows 7 Explorer Sort order

Which is a link to:
alliancegroup . co . uk technical help pages

Red Herrings:

There are a number of fixes available through the group policy editor (!) In my case (Win 7 Home premium 64bit) I am not allowed to use it! . . . therefore I have tried the "Registry fix" at the above link.

Again, (presumably because I only have Home Premium) the Dword "NoStrCmpLogical" did not exist!
I created it and gave it the value of 1.

For the very busy reader, the relevant part of the above link is:

Alternatively you can change the setting in the Registry database:

To turn off numerical sorting:
In [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\Explorer]
Set NoStrCmpLogical to 1 - that is: "NoStrCmpLogical"=dword:00000001

​

It seems to work!