User\My Docs != Libraries\Docs !

[slehar]

There's something really weird on my Windowz-7 64-bit computer, the contents of

C:\Users\user\My Documents

is DIFFERENT than

Libraries\Documents !!!

At first blush they look identical, same list of folders, but inside one of my sub-sub-folders the contents are COMPLETELY different! One day I browsed to my work folder and found it EMPTY, all my work lost, but when I went around to the other one, there they were again! So I continued working from the one where the files were visible (Libraries\Documents\...) but then one day I couldn't find the work I'd done the day before. So I browsed on over to the other side and THERE THEY WERE! Now I have two different copies of my PowerPoint presentation, some of my files in one side, the rest in the other!

What gives? Every other sub-sub-folder I've checked seems identical, as they should be. Is there another ghost copy of Documents different than My Documents?

 

[Brink]

Hello Slehar, and welcome to Seven Forums.

This is because a library is a collection of included folders shortcuts from different locations.

The Documents library has the C:\Users\Public\Documents and your C:\Users\user\My Documents contents included in it by default. By default, documents are saved into your C:\Users\user\My Documents folder instead of the Documents library itself.

Hope this helps,
Shawn

 

[slehar]

HI Shawn,

Thanks for your help. I am still somewhat confused, even after browsing up on the concept of *including* files in libraries (thanks for the search term!).

So the difference between a "symbolic link" (unix) or "shortcut" ('Doz) and an included folder is [1] the symlink looks like a folder that you click on to see its contents, whereas the included file dumps the *contents* of the folder into the library as if they were in the library itself, not a sub-folder of the library. And [2] if you delete a file from the library, it will disappear from the library but continue to exist somewhere else, whereas when you follow a simlink into a folder and delete a file in there, it will actually go to the recycle bin. Is that right?

Geesh, sounds really confusing, set up to make people accidentally delete stuff! I hate this new trend (in 'Doz and Apple) to try to hide the real folder hierarchy from the user by creating false "root nodes" in Documents, and Desktop, that appear as root nodes, like the Documents node on the left panel of my Explorer window, but are really secretly a sub-node somewhere in the file hierarchy. And I hate even more the idea of pretending that two folders are really the same when they are actually subtly different!

How do I make sure to avoid the problem I ran into, of accessing some folder two different ways, and inadvertently creating two copies of that folder that I thought were one and the same? Should I never use my Libraries folder and always surf to C:\Users\user\My Documents? Or should I always use the Documents folder and never use C:\Users\user\My Documents?

Steve

 

[slehar]

This is really weird. I'm in Microsoft Word and I click Save As, and the navigation bar says

Libraries > Documents > My Documents > Temp

If I go up one folder into My Documents I see all my files and folders there, but if I go up one more into Documents, I see EXACTLY THE SAME FILES AND FOLDERS, with the EXCEPTION of "My Documents" which no longer appears, I cannot go back down there, as if it did not exist!

This is what I mean about things being real confusing because they pretend that My Documents IS Documents, but it isn't, and they pretend that My Documents does not exist, but it DOES, and its "included" inside of Documents but you CAN'T SEE IT there because they are pretending that you are already there!

What confuses me is whether there is a difference between my Saving As into Documents as opposed to into Documents\My Documents. Is there a difference? What is the proper practice to avoid getting into trouble?

Steve

 

[Brink]

The user folders use symlinks, and the libraries do not. You will not get the duplicate folder issue with libraries that you may get with user folders when use folders are moved.

The libraries only reference the contents of the included folders, so the contents are not store in the libraries but still in the actual included folder location. However, like a "shortcut", if you delete a file in either the library or the real included folder location, it will delete it from both locations.

 

[slehar]

So to reconstruct my original problem, I started by creating a sub-folder in:

\Libraries\Documents\SubFolder

and filling it with my work files, and then later I accessed that same folder through

C:\Users\user\My Documents\SubFolder

where first I saw all my original files, opened them and worked more, but BECAUSE I HAD ACCESSED THE FOLDER DIRECTLY (using the above path), any time I hit "Save", then instead of saving it in the folder where I opened it, it saved it someplace ELSE, where it was directed by the registry?

But didn't you say that those two paths actually refer to the same original folder, whose actual factual location is

C:\Users\user\My Documents\SubFolder ?

How could it save it anywhere other than that above path, given that Libraries\Documents\SubFolder is actually the same place?

I'm still confused!

 

[Brink]

Slehar,

Ah, I see where you went wrong at now. You created a new folder in the Documents library that will also be created in the C:\Users\user\My Documents\SubFolder folder since it is the default Save to folder.

The contents of the folder are actually stored at the (ex: C:\Users\user\My Documents\SubFolder) location instead of in the library.

 

[slehar]

Oh THANK YOU! Now I get it!

See? Thats what comes of deceiving the user that they are in Documents, as a regular folder, when in fact it is a weird thing that only looks like, and behaves like a folder, but when you turn around and arn't looking it behaves completely differently!

So for me, the solution (being an old-fashioned guy who likes real folders and symbolic links) I should NEVER navigate through my library, I should always go through the REAL path where things REALLY exist, i.e.

C:\Users\User\My Documents

Thanks for your help, I could never have figured that!

Steve

 

[Brink]

You're most welcome Steve. Anytime.

 

[slehar]

One more quick question -- Where IS the Libraries on the real hierarchy of folders? Is there a way for me to navigate to the new SubFolder I created inside the library without going through the library? Like the Desktop, which pretends to be a root node, but is actually located in C:\Documents and Settings\user\Desktop?

Steve

 

[Brink]

No problem. The full path to the hidden Libraries folder is below. The subfolder will be inside the library that you created it in.

C:\Users\(User-Name)\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Libraries


It would be much easier though to go through the library normally though.

 

[slehar]

Boy is this confusing!

Just ranting quietly to myself.
<rant ON>
They sure made a BIG MESS of the filesystem in Windows 7!
If I navigate to C:\Users\user\My Documents\My Talks\SAND and in it I click "New folder" then that new folder also appears in

C:\Users\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Documents\My Talks\SAND

(Brilliantly mis-named secret file location!)
I thought it should only appear there if I create a New folder in

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND

but I explicitly created the new folder along the traditional C:\Users path, avoiding the Libraries thing altogether. But there it is! In my secret hidden Library storage location!

But I can't SEE my new folder from the Libraries path.

And I can't create a New folder inside Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND because there is no "New folder" click-button provided!

And if I try to move my new folder over to the SAND folder under Libraries, it complains that the source and destination folder is the same! (Its a LIE!) even though I can't SEE that new folder from the Libraries path! It pretends we are already there, but we arn't!

When I right-click "Properties" on C:\Users\user\My Documents it says

Location: C:\Users\user\My Documents

But when I click on a folder INSIDE My Documents, it says

Location: C:\Users\user\Documents (its a LIE!!)

even while the address bar at the top says C:\Users\user\My Documents

And in C:\Users\user there are TWO "My Documents" in there! One looks like a symbolic link (with the little [arrow]) but when you right-click "Properties" it LIES and tells you its a regular folder, but when you click on it it says Access Denied, Not Accessible! Only the OTHER "My Documents" (same name, same location, different thing!) lets you get access to your own documents.

What an unholy mess they have created from the once-simple folder hierarchy, one of the simplest, most elegant and powerful features an operating system ever had, with a root node and sub-folders. But now MicroSuck has twisted it all into loops, pretending that Desktop is a root node, and My Documents is a root node (its a LIE!!! its a LIE!!!!) and now they are telling you that files "included" in a library are actually in it, when in fact, invisible to the user, they are somewhere ELSE, but woe betide the unwary user who thinks their Library is just a folder (sure looks like one!) and starts creating sub-folders willy-nilly, cause when they go back those sub-folders are gone, or reappear somewhere completely different! And when you move your mouse into the address field at the top of an Explorer window, the address CHANGES under your cursor from, for example,

Computer > OS(C: )> Users > user > AppData > Roaming > Microsoft > Windows > Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND

to

C:\Users\user\Documents\My Talks\SAND

A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT path!!! Which one IS it? Why don't they provide at least ONE place where you can find out where a file is REALLY stored?!?!

Why oh why, oh me oh my!

<rant OFF>

 

[slehar]

Still Confused

Ok I just did a series of tests.

I surfed to Libraries > Documents and now there IS a "New folder" clickspot so I created a new folder in it called

Libraries > Documents > Lib-Doc

Now I thought this should not appear in the

C:\Users\user\My Documents\

path, but there it was! Not only there, but it also appeared in

C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Libraries\Documents\Lib-doc

It appeared in all 3 places as if they were all the same location!

Next: I surfed back to

Libraries > Documents > Lib-Doc

and created a new sub-folder SubFolderLibDocPath

Then I surfed over to

C:\Users\user\My Documents\Lib-Doc

and created a new sub-folder SubFolderCUsersPath

Then I surfed over to

C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Libraries\Documents\Lib-doc

and created a new sub-folder SubFolderAppDataPath

And ALL THREE new folders were visible and accessible from ALL THREE of the alternate paths. I even created a text file, and did Save-As three times, saving to paths

Libraries > Documents > Lib-Doc>SubFolderLibDocPath>LibDocPath.txt

C:\Users\user\My Documents\Lib-Doc\SubFolderCUsersPath\CUsersPath.txt

C:\Users\user\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Libraries\Documents\Lib-doc\SubFolderAppDataPath\AppDataPath.txt

and found that ALL THREE text files in ALL THREE sub-folders were all visible from ALL THREE paths! As if they were all one and the same place!

But then how on earth did it ever happen that I have two distinct folder locations (my original complaint) that is:

C:\Users\user\Documents\My Talks\SAND

and

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND

the first contains all my files I've been working on, the second file contains only SOME of those files (some duplicates) that I must have worked on that one day, (although they have different Date Modified's) and NONE of the rest! How did this come to pass? And by the way, the AppData path to the SAND folder had the same contents as the Libraries>Documents path.

Why did I not replicate that same asymmetry in my series of tests?

And what did I do wrong to create that original asymmetry in the first place? Why can't I replicate that mistake? Was it perhaps when doing a Save As, I saved to

Libraries > Documents > My Documents > My Talks > SAND

instead of

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND

? (or vice-versa?) Same place, different names, not the same after all?

Geesh am I ever confused!

 

[slehar]

Found a hint...

I have found a hint of what is going on under the hood. When I surf over to

Libraries > Documents > My Talks

I can see a "New Folder" clickspot. But if I browse down one more level

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND

the "New folder" clickspot is GONE! But if I go up one and down again, for example to

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > PercepCon

there IS a "New folder" clickspot there at that same level! So the absence of the "New folder" clickspot is a warning to the user not to create a new folder there. But then HOW DID I CREATE IT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE if there was no "New folder" clickspot?

And what's a guy to do if he wants to create a sub-folder inside his library? Do I have to go around the long way through the C:\Users path and create it there?

This is the problem with MicroSuck -- they introduce new "features" that have everyone going round it crazy circles just trying to learn how to do what they've been doing for years, because now everything is different and you have to start from scratch!

(Oops! I'm ranting again!)

 

[slehar]

Another test

Here's another test:

From Libraries > Documents

I clicked "New folder" and called it "New folder1"

Then I entered "New folder1" and in it I created "New folder 2"

and in it I created "New folder 3"

and in it I created "New folder 4"

and in it I created "New folder 5"

to produce this structure

Libraries > Documents > New folder1 > New folder2 > New folder3 > New folder4 > New folder5 >

and there was STILL a "New folder" clickspot available!

And ALL FIVE LEVELS of the hierarchy were visible from ALL THREE of the alternative paths!

 

[whs]

I think your confusion comes from the fact that you compare libraries to folders. But they are something completely different. Libraries are nothing but a repository pointing to folders - think of it in terms of an index.

You can, if you like, e.g. copy something to the "Documents" library. But then it grabs the first library in line. I guess this is for convenience. But if you have several libraries or if you want to copy to a specific folder, you should select that folder.

 

[fillup]

You should watch some of these videos on how libraries work: windows 7 libraries explained - Google Search

 

[slehar]

Another discovery

Here's another discovery.

the files in this sub-folder of my SAND folder...

C:\Users\user\My Documents\My Talks\SAND\ForestAfterImage

ForestScene1.jpg
ForestScene2.jpg
ForestScene3.jpg
ForestScene4.jpg

appear in the Libraries path but now they are in the SAND folder, not in a sub-folder!

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND >

ForestScene1.jpg
ForestScene2.jpg
ForestScene3.jpg
ForestScene4.jpg

The sub-folder ForestAfterImage/ has vanished! And the library has dumped all its contents into SAND, flattening the file structure!

But you can discover their true location by right-click Properties, which show

Location: C:\Users\user\Documents\My Talks\ScienceAndNonDuality\ForestAfterImage

(although at first the \ForestAfterImage part of the path is hidden beyond the right end of the little text window, you have to click it and scroll right to even see it!)

So when Windoz7 includes a folder in a library it flattens all its sub-folders and lies to you about their location unless you know how to investigate more closely.

 

[James Colbert]

I have found a hint of what is going on under the hood. When I surf over to

Libraries > Documents > My Talks

I can see a "New Folder" clickspot. But if I browse down one more level

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > SAND

the "New folder" clickspot is GONE! But if I go up one and down again, for example to

Libraries > Documents > My Talks > PercepCon

there IS a "New folder" clickspot there at that same level! So the absence of the "New folder" clickspot is a warning to the user not to create a new folder there. But then HOW DID I CREATE IT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE if there was no "New folder" clickspot?

Even if there is no New Folder button, you can still Right-click on the library and choose \New\Folder.

James

 

[MacGyvr]

There is so much misinformation in this thread that it's difficult to know where to begin fixing the mess.

First, if you open the "Documents" LIBRARY, you should see only two folders underneath it (unless you have added others)...they are "My Documents" and "Public Documents". At this point, if those are the only folders there, the documents LIBRARY and the "My Documents" FOLDER will be EXACTLY the same. No exception, no debate. If they are not the same, your system IS broken somehow.

Now, if you have added other folders to the Documents LIBRARY, the situation is different. There is absolutely no need to add any folders under the "My Documents" FOLDER to the Documents LIBRARY. THEY ARE ALREADY INCLUDED!!! If you add them again, you are going to cause redundancy and other unknown errors to occur.

Next, if you look at the properties of the LIBRARY, you will see a default save location. It should be the "My Documents" folder. If you create a new folder in the LIBRARY, this is where that folder WILL be created. It WILL be visible both from the LIBRARY and from the FOLDER, in the exact same location. If not, again, your system is broken somehow. I am testing this myself as I type it, and it IS how it works.

If you are seeing different results than what I have described here, you have a definite problem with your Windows 7 installation.