Win7 system image backup advanced format compatibility

[bohr]

Hello.

Lenovo ThinkPad Edge E545 laptop with 64bit Win7 Pro SP1 pre-installed;
hard disk:
WDC WD3200LPVX-08V0TT5 320GB
firmware 05.01A05
512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical (I think this is called Advanced Format "512e")
5400 rpm
SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s

Questions:

For the system described above, which of the following combinations will reliably create a usable (restorable) system image backup?

1) Win7 backup and restore using a Seagate FreeAgent 1000GB external USB drive*?

2) Win7 backup and restore using a Seagate STCP3000100 3TB external USB drive?

3) Clonezilla 2.2.3-25-i686-pae using a Seagate FreeAgent 1000GB external USB drive*?

4) Clonezilla 2.2.3-25-i686-pae using a Seagate STCP3000100 3TB external USB drive?

Thank you.

* more info on Seagate FreeAgent 1000GB external USB drive:
Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 1TB
ST31000528AS
firmware CC35
512 bytes per sector logical/physical
ATA version ATA8-ACS T13/1699-D revision4
SATA 2.6 3.0 Gb/s

 

[cyanna]

The 3 GB options are too small.
If all you have is one partition go for Windows 7 backup, clonezilla sometimes causes errors on boot after restore and you might need to perform a "start up repair"
This being said it is not a good idea to have a 360GB partition. Backups are going to be very large! My preferred option is to keep 60GB for the OS, have 100-150 GB for my personal files (docs, pics, music, outlook and FF backups) and leave the rest for other stuff (I have a large collection of software and CD/DVD images, I move the downloads and temp folders out of the OS partition....). This permits smaller backups and different backup schedules for the OS (monthly) and my personal files (daily). Also if the OS goes for whatever reason you still have your personal files. You can connect the drive to another computer and you are back in business.
If you do partition you might want to consider another solution entirely, for example Macrium Reflect free. Windows 7 backup can end up wiping all your partitions when you restore if you don't pay attention to the options during the restore process.

 

[bohr]

Thank you for your reply. Please see embedded comments:

The 3 GB options are too small.

Could you please explain what you mean by that? If you meant too few options, what other options would you suggest?

clonezilla sometimes causes errors on boot after restore and you might need to perform a "start up repair"

? I have used Clonezilla for many years making system backup images from 512-to-512 (bytes per sector) drives and never encountered that problem


This being said it is not a good idea to have a 360GB partition.

There are 4 partitions:

1) SYSTEM_DRV NTFS 1.46GB
2) Windows7_OS NTFS 49 GB
3) Data NTFS 230GB
4) Lenovo_Recovery NTFS 18GB


If all you have is one partition go for Windows 7 backup,

Are you sure that Win7 Backup works with Advanced Format 512e disks??

If you do partition you might want to consider another solution entirely, for example Macrium Reflect free. Windows 7 backup can end up wiping all your partitions when you restore if you don't pay attention to the options during the restore process.

So can Macrium, it happened to me. And I was paying very close attention to the options. It gave me no warning, and wiped out my data partition.

 

[cyanna]

1. THE RED TEXT IS SUPER ANNOYING!
2. You can't back up a 360GB drive on a 3GB backup drive
3. Good for you re clonezilla, I expect you have your answer.....
4. W7 backup of 512e drives: yep. See HERE
5. If it happened with Macrium then definitely don't go for win 7 backup

 

[bohr]

Comments embedded below:

1. THE RED TEXT IS SUPER ANNOYING!

Sorry about that

2. You can't back up a 360GB drive on a 3GB backup drive

That was obviously a typo. It's a 3TB drive.

3. Good for you re clonezilla, I expect you have your answer.....

No, I don't have the answer to the question I asked, which involves a 512e drive. All my experience with Clonezilla has been with 512 physical sector drives.

4. W7 backup of 512e drives: yep. See HERE

Well we all know we can trust Microsoft, right? I went ahead and made a system image with Win7 on the 1000GB USB drive. Then I tried to restore from it... and Win7 could not find the image it had just made.

5. If it happened with Macrium then definitely don't go for win 7 backup

What's the connection?

 

[cyanna]

W7 can't find the image or the USB hard drive? Most common cause for not found image is because the user has moved or renamed the backup folder.
How were you trying to restore: from within windows? Booting from recovery CD? Booting from W7 DVD?

Macrium v W7 Backup: It's much easier to delete all partitions using W7 backup than using Macrium

 

[bohr]

W7 can't find the image or the USB hard drive?

Can't find the USB drive. The same one it had no problem finding when it made the system image.

How were you trying to restore: from within windows? Booting from recovery CD? Booting from W7 DVD?

Boot from "Win7 64bit System Repair Disk" that I made using Win7 on the same machine.

 

[bohr]

Question for Clonezilla users:

I have a laptop with 64bit Win7 Pro SP1 pre-installed on a 512e drive (4096 byte physical sectors, 512 logical sectors).

I have a 1000GB USB2 external drive with 512 byte physical sectors.

I have a Clonezilla 2.2.3-25-i686-pae boot CD.

Using the laptop as the source and the USB drive as the destination, I want to create a backup image of the system partition.

Then using the USB drive as the source and the laptop as the destination, I want to restore that system partition image.

Please share your experience if you have used Clonezilla to do this.

TL;DR:
backup system partition on 512e drive to image on 512 drive, then
restore image on 512 drive to system partition on 512e drive

Thank you.

 

[cyanna]

If you have not renamed or moved or added to the folder and two files created by Windows backup, make sure the USB drive is not plugged in a USB3 port. Windows has drivers for USB3 but the system repair disc doesn't.

 

[bohr]

If you have not renamed or moved or added to the folder and two files created by Windows backup, make sure the USB drive is not plugged in a USB3 port. Windows has drivers for USB3 but the system repair disc doesn't.

I have not renamed or moved or added to the folder or files that Windows created.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like you are telling me that Windows created a System Repair Disk that will not work on the very computer on which it was created.

Either that, or you are saying that my brand-new laptop has both USB3 and USB2 ports. In which case, how do I tell which is which?

 

[cyanna]

If the laptop is new it should have USB3. Depending on model it might or might not have USB2 ports. The USB3 ports have a blue plastic bit inside , USB2 have black or white.

 

[bohr]

The Lenovo Thinkpad Edge E545 (specified in OP) has 3 USB3 ports and 1 USB2 port.

I plugged the 1000GB USB drive into the USB2 port, and the Win7 System Repair Disk is now able to find the image I created earlier. Thanks for the tip. Would it be so difficult for the Microsoft software to tell me that?

I am not going to "test" the restore operation on this machine, because it does not belong to me.

I would, however, like to get some sort of estimate of the likelihood that it would actually work successfully, were it to be needed. In this context, "successfully" means no surprises, no hassles, no hair-pulling weirdness, no late-night hours pleading for help on the internet. For example, does it matter if the partitions on the laptop are not aligned on 4K boundaries? Stuff like that. Stuff that I don't even know to ask about.

Are there any fellow Clonezilla users reading this? Please share you experience using Clonezilla to make and restore images of 512e drives.

 

[SIW2]

What is this obsession with 512e?

I have used several imaging programs on mine without any issue. I haven't come across one yet that has a problem with it.

 

[cyanna]

does it matter if the partitions on the laptop are not aligned on 4K boundaries?

Quite probable. If you are using Windows any version post Vista will ensure correct formatting so this issue is unlikely to occur. If you format the disk using some linux flavor find a tutorial that explains how to correctly use fdisk (I'm not a linux user so I don't have any I can recommend)
Stuff I have learned the hard way:
-keep several backups. You have to move the one folder and two files inside a new folder named "Clean install" or "before SP install" or "6montly backup" or Windows backup will delete the old backups. Before you use the backup extract the files and folder for the one backup you want to use to the root of the drive.
-do not defragment a drive or partitions that contains backups, it's the most reliable method I know to corrupt a backup file. If you want them in one piece move them out and copy them back again
-if you only want to restore one partition have a recent, working backup of the rest of the disk. Deleting all partitions during the restore operation is a very common accident.
HERE is a pretty good tutorial on how to restore a backup, in particular make sure you are familiar with the comments in point 7 and below (keep a copy of the tutorial in printed format....)

 

[bohr]

What is this obsession with 512e?

Merriam-Webster
OBSESSION
a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling

I'm going to assume you just picked the wrong word and didn't intend to be harsh and insulting.

 

[bohr]

does it matter if the partitions on the laptop are not aligned on 4K boundaries?

Quite probable.

OK, so... what other factors, that I don't yet know about, should I be aware of?

If you format the disk using some linux flavor find a tutorial that explains how to correctly use fdisk

I have several Linux live CD's. I know how to examine and modify partitions in Linux. In fact, the next item on my to-do list for this machine is to boot Linux and confirm that the factory-installed partitions are indeed aligned on 4K boundaries. (If there's a way to see this info in Windows, I don't know how).

(I'm not a linux user so I don't have any I can recommend)

I use and recommend DebianDog, PuppyPrecise, and LucidPuppy live CDs.

Stuff I have learned the hard way:
-keep several backups. You have to move the one folder and two files inside a new folder named "Clean install" or "before SP install" or "6montly backup" or Windows backup will delete the old backups.

Yikes. Thanks for the heads-up. What are these "2 files" you have mentioned a couple of times now?

If you want them in one piece move them out and copy them back again

Did you mean to say "move them out and move them back again?

if you only want to restore one partition have a recent, working backup of the rest of the disk. Deleting all partitions during the restore operation is a very common accident

Can you describe the specific user error/misunderstanding that leads to this accident?

The Macrium fiasco I mentioned in an earlier post was like this: I had a disk with a system partition and a data partition. I had an image of the system partition. I wanted to restore the system image to the system partition and leave the data partition alone. I proceeded with great care, reading the fine print of every dialog screen. Macrium erased the data partition, without ever presenting a warning that it was going to do so. This was about 3 years ago, so they may have fixed it by now.

 

[bohr]

does it matter if the partitions on the laptop are not aligned on 4K boundaries?

Quite probable.

I just checked. Each of the 4 partitions starts on a 4K boundary. None of them end on a 4K boundary. I'm thinking the starting alignment is what matters. The ending does not have to be on 4K boundary?

 

[cyanna]

Yikes. Thanks for the heads-up. What are these "2 files" you have mentioned a couple of times now?

The backup creates a Windows Image Backup folder, a second folder that has a different icon and has the name you gave the backup when you created it and a file called MediaID.bin. These three elements have to be kept together for each backup and have to be at the root of the drive from which you want to restore.

Did you mean to say "move them out and move them back again?

Yeah, sorry, I am paranoid about my backups so I move them to an online storage and then copy them back again because I leave a copy online.

Can you describe the specific user error/misunderstanding that leads to this accident?

Did you read the tutorial I linked to? Miss or misinterpret any of the tick boxes in step 7, 8 and /or 9 (depending on what you want to do) and you are in for a surprise at next reboot

 

[bohr]

Yikes. Thanks for the heads-up. What are these "2 files" you have mentioned a couple of times now?

The backup creates a Windows Image Backup folder, a second folder that has a different icon and has the name you gave the backup when you created it and a file called MediaID.bin.

The Win7 image backup process created only one folder, at the root, named WindowsImageBackup. It never asked me for a name. Here is the complete dir/s listing:

H:\>dir
 Volume in drive H is Seagate 1000G

 Directory of H:\

07/31/2014  01:25 PM    <DIR>          Clonezilla
02/11/2009  03:06 PM            44,902 FreeAgentDesktopNext.ico
03/24/2009  01:42 AM    <DIR>          Seagate
01/16/2009  04:14 AM           156,312 Setup.exe
08/01/2014  02:03 AM    <DIR>          WindowsImageBackup


H:\>cd WindowsImageBackup

H:\WindowsImageBackup>dir/s

 Directory of H:\WindowsImageBackup

08/01/2014  02:03 AM    <DIR>          .
08/01/2014  02:03 AM    <DIR>          ..
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          Lenny


 Directory of H:\WindowsImageBackup\Lenny

08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          .
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          ..
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          Backup 2014-08-01 060220
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          Catalog
08/01/2014  02:03 AM                16 MediaId
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          SPPMetadataCache
               1 File(s)             16 bytes

 Directory of H:\WindowsImageBackup\Lenny\Backup 2014-08-01 060220

08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          .
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          ..
08/01/2014  02:03 AM       367,096,832 6c6e2157-fabb-11e3-9aa5-806e6f6e6963.vhd
08/01/2014  02:19 AM    32,092,264,960 6c6e2158-fabb-11e3-9aa5-806e6f6e6963.vhd
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    14,073,267,712 6c6e2159-fabb-11e3-9aa5-806e6f6e6963.vhd
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             1,078 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_AdditionalFilesc3b9f3c7-5e52-4d5e-8b20-19adc95a34c7.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM            14,842 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Components.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             6,542 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_RegistryExcludes.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             3,978 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Writer4dc3bdd4-ab48-4d07-adb0-3bee2926fd7f.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             1,488 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Writer542da469-d3e1-473c-9f4f-7847f01fc64f.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             1,484 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Writera6ad56c2-b509-4e6c-bb19-49d8f43532f0.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             3,844 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Writerafbab4a2-367d-4d15-a586-71dbb18f8485.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             6,430 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Writerbe000cbe-11fe-4426-9c58-531aa6355fc4.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             7,110 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Writercd3f2362-8bef-46c7-9181-d62844cdc0b2.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM         4,106,116 854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d_Writere8132975-6f93-4464-a53e-1050253ae220.xml
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             1,620 BackupSpecs.xml
              14 File(s) 46,536,784,036 bytes

 Directory of H:\WindowsImageBackup\Lenny\Catalog

08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          .
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          ..
08/01/2014  02:03 AM             6,480 BackupGlobalCatalog
08/01/2014  02:25 AM             8,540 GlobalCatalog
               2 File(s)         15,020 bytes

 Directory of H:\WindowsImageBackup\Lenny\SPPMetadataCache

08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          .
08/01/2014  02:25 AM    <DIR>          ..
08/01/2014  02:25 AM            91,648 {854f1511-6769-40c5-ade8-76c395ae305d}
               1 File(s)         91,648 bytes

     Total Files Listed:
              18 File(s) 46,536,890,720 bytes
              14 Dir(s)  265,100,197,888 bytes free

H:\WindowsImageBackup>

 

[cyanna]

Sorry, been a bit busy: A backup that contains a system image will create 3 things: a normal folder named Windows Backup, a special folder that has your computer name and a different icon that the usual folders and a Media.bin file
If you have not ticked the box to create a system image "All files in known system folders (folders that contain files that Windows needs to run), and known program files (files that define themselves as part of a program in the registry when the program is installed) will not be backed up even if they are in a selected folder."