With Windows Blue, Microsoft may (finally) do the right thing

[Night Hawk]

Don't forget to read up on another similar report as well when looking this one over. Microsoft's mea culpa? Five things that Windows Blue should do | ZDNet

With Windows Blue, Microsoft may (finally) do the right thing

Summary: Call it capitulation. Call it listening to customers. But whatever you call it, making Windows 8 more usable with expected coming Blue tweaks is a positive, not a negative.

By Mary Jo Foley for All About Microsoft

May 12, 2013 -- 19:54 GMT (12:54 PDT)

Over the past week, I've been surprised how many armchair pundits have lambasted Microsoft for its still not officially-admitted but largely expected decisions to add an optional Start Button and boot-to-desktop capability to Windows Blue.

There've been reports claiming everything from Microsoft is doing a 180-degree reversal with Windows Blue, to others advising the Redmondians to dig in their heels and stay the current UI course with its coming Blue update.

Windows Blue, from all leaks and tips I've received, is not a do-over. (If it were, it would take Microsoft a lot longer than nine or ten months to deliver it.) And ignoring customer confusion isn't a virtue; it's stupidity.

This armchair pundit finds it refreshing to hear Windows honchos admit that Windows 8 isn't selling as well as they hoped and that they want to make its successor more comfortable, familiar and usable for the Windows installed base.

see full report

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
Again some real FUD here (the people who say they don't need to change the interface at all)

For example it says we don't need Windowed efficiency -- Well please Mr FUD writer explain to me how I can translate an English document into 3 other languages without looking at them all concurrently -- I'm afraid my memory isn't that good that I only need one window open.

Similarly comparing say flights from different web sites - it can be done via a bit of tabbing but that's horrible when you can simply display the sites concurrently.

What about merging / importing all sorts of content from various documents into other ones - or designing EXCEL Pivot tables.

In Engineering I might be monitoring Gas emissions from TWO or THREE places from a volcano and want to compare with previous results - I would definitely need a lot of CONCURRENT WINDOWS.

If you use a PC as a glorified web browser and a multi-media player / server then no argument with the new GUI -- but for serious work --PLEEEEEEEEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE OUT IN THE REAL WORLD DO ON THEIR MACHINES. Metro is NOT the answer here.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Night Hawk]

When you see something like this jimbo45 you have to watch out you don't crack too many ribs when laughing too hard at some of the lame stupidity often seen!

Metro or "Modern" one blog writer reported was the supposed newer name for Metro was specifically designed for Tablet devices with touch and swipe technology to begin with. I could place a bet that someone on the gui team didn't even know at first MS would be stuffing it on the desktop editions as well as on Surface!

The best thing MS could actually do to "save face" would be to rename 8 to Surface Tablet OS desktop edition rather then have tried to push it out as any replacement for what does work on the desktop platform! I have to look at another writer mentioned when asking would Blue be more of the same... Metro crapola! simply updating it to appease some desktop users a little but still pushing the Metro in your face rather then admit the idea of Tablet on Desktop is a flop to begin with!

The real failure is not just from seeing Metro but how MS left out any user options for any type of standardized desktop gui when 8 was not on a tablet but put to use on a desktop or laptop retaining some degree of familiarity. Instead retail stores like Staples had to come out and offer "free lessens" on how to use 8 in order to sell new pcs coming out with 8 on them! That in itself shows a great deal of poor marketing decisions out of vanity for Surface promotion rather then taking into the necessary steps to at least offer some type of updated desktop option. Hindsight is foresight with MS there lately it seems!

 

[Dallas 7]

Hi there
Again some real FUD here (the people who say they don't need to change the interface at all)

For example it says we don't need Windowed efficiency -- Well please Mr FUD writer explain to me how I can translate an English document into 3 other languages without looking at them all concurrently -- I'm afraid my memory isn't that good that I only need one window open.

Similarly comparing say flights from different web sites - it can be done via a bit of tabbing but that's horrible when you can simply display the sites concurrently.

What about merging / importing all sorts of content from various documents into other ones - or designing EXCEL Pivot tables.

In Engineering I might be monitoring Gas emissions from TWO or THREE places from a volcano and want to compare with previous results - I would definitely need a lot of CONCURRENT WINDOWS.

If you use a PC as a glorified web browser and a multi-media player / server then no argument with the new GUI -- but for serious work --PLEEEEEEEEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE OUT IN THE REAL WORLD DO ON THEIR MACHINES. Metro is NOT the answer here.

Cheers
jimbo

Great post Jimbo, but is the ability to perform complex tasks like that really more important than an OS that boots 2 seconds faster?

In fact, maybe the whole world should just discontinue any and all complex multi-tasking jobs in favor of faster boots, and keeping the FaceBook and Twitter crowd occupied with touch screen finger painting.

Truthfully Jimbo I think some people are so infatuated with the concept of "Change just for the sake of change" they forget that many tasks in today's world require a kick butt computer system. Not every serious job can be performed by a touch-for-fun tablet.

I think W8 is fine for tablets and phones but I agree completely with what you said:
For serious work, "WHAT PEOPLE OUT IN THE REAL WORLD DO ON THEIR MACHINES. Metro is NOT the answer".

 

[Night Hawk]

Well look back at the chief gui designer from SUN Microsystems had to say about the "design failure" when implimenting a tablet gui on any desktop release. As a rule people expect to see the common elements they have grown accustomed to despite a change in themes and styles while still retaining a common ground for navigating in the OS itself as well as seeing at least some form of familiar options.

Familiar options? again takes us right back to Vista which offered Aero or Classic themes for those coming up from the 2000 or XP even some ME previous versions. With 8 however MS simply focused only on what their goal was of selling the new tablets without providing options for the average desktop user. You will also note that only two editions are available on dvd namely Home or Windows 8 without it being label Home or Home Premium and Pro.

The Pro Plus and Enterprise are only sold by way of MS store, MSDN, TechNet, or some other authorise agent showing 8 isn't being classsified the same as a major release but simply a new tablet version that just happens to have desktop editions tossed into the mix.

The main problem right from the start from not providing built in options is the need for either going with a 3rd party app or tweaking thing with 7 files! Any customer base would expect the software company instead to have things worked out to sastify their needs and nor have to go elsewhere for what has been the more or less traditional working framework.

Now the question everyone is asking will be if Blue takes into consideration any or all of this and brings a few things back to turn the 8 Second Edition? or Windows 9? or whatever into a working OS for the desktop experience or simply be an updated reharsh of the mishap they made with 8?

Another question that comes to mind would be MS realizing the big goof and then taking a more serious look back at 7 to see what does work and come up with a working solution to progress further from where 7 left off? The core improvements in 8 actually mean little if the main gui people have to work with doesn't make the trip! It's one thing to enhance touchscreen capability but not sacrifice the working desktop concepts in the process. 8 seems more of a filler inbetween the working formulas that could be!

 

[Dallas 7]

You know Night Hawk if I had to guess, I suspect M$ is going to try and bluff their way through......they may add the start button back in and maybe even allow you to boot to the desktop to try and pacify the public, but I doubt they'll go much further than that. I don't think M$ is interested in fully reinstating the desktop to it's rightful former status.

Windows Blue will probably offer just enough to try and sucker the public into thinking we got the real thing again, till you try multitasking with multiple windows and discover that "Blue" is still just a tablet at heart.
Actually I hope M$ learned their lesson, but we'll see what happens.
As "The Gipper" used to say, "Trust but verify".

 

[Night Hawk]

The problems seem to be getting even more worse off as time goes along it seems besides simply seeing the OS trashed in favor of "Tabletoidisms"! Now the side effects of all this are having a serious impact on the hardware manufacturers as well when you add that to the slump in overall pc sales!

CNET just today dropped this bomb shell in their news section! :shock: More PC woes: AMD tanks, Windows 8 misfires in Europe | Microsoft - CNET News

As you can clearly see from just a small quote here it's not just the OEMs taking the brunt of this but the chip manufacturers as well.

Goldman downgraded AMD's stock from "neutral" to "sell," saying that AMD's upside in gaming devices, like Sony's upcoming PlaySation 4, "only partially offsets the continued...challenges in the company's core PC business." AMD is the second-largest maker of processors for PCs.

Dell was hit hard on Thursday, too, reporting a 79 percent drop in profit due to slumping PC sales. The PC maker posted its earnings five days earlier than planned, due to The Wall Street Journal reporting leaked numbers.

Since the bulk of the pc industry itself is generally found to be wrapped around the Windows OS you can be sure Intel as well as AMD is taking hits too. You just haven't been hearing about those yet!

 

[x BlueRobot]

As anyone noticed that almost all Windows 8 advertisements (especially here) feature a child using a Windows 8 tablet?

Two crucial points - child and tablet.

 

[Night Hawk]

Anyone can touch a screen! = child Tablet OS for Tablet MS is trying to pass things off as being "oh so simple a child could.... blah blah blah" to cover the fact that the whole thing from the start was about pushing tablets not desktops!

What all this shows is that Windows 8 has been nothing more than a "Marketing Tool" for their Surface Tablets as well as the new Compact edition when found to be an embedded OS except for one thing! OEMs can modify as well as develop their own gui for the embedded form of Windows! Note part of the description from the Wikipedia page seen at Windows CE

Microsoft Windows CE (now officially known as Windows Embedded Compact and previously also known as Windows Embedded CE,[4][5] and sometimes abbreviated WinCE) is an operating system developed by Microsoft for embedded systems. Windows CE is a distinct operating system and kernel, rather than a trimmed-down version of desktop Windows.[6] It is not to be confused with Windows Embedded Standard which is an NT-based componentized version of desktop Microsoft Windows.

Microsoft licenses Windows CE to OEMs and device makers. The OEMs and device makers can modify and create their own user interfaces and experiences, with Windows CE providing the technical foundation to do so.
The current version of Windows Embedded Compact supports Intel x86 and compatibles, MIPS, and ARM processors.

And as we know OEMs this time around decided on their own to come up with their gui as far as Start menu and things when seeing what 8 was going to turn out as!

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

As anyone noticed that almost all Windows 8 advertisements (especially here) feature a child using a Windows 8 tablet?

Two crucial points - child and tablet.

Not to mention I have yet to see one that shows serious content being created. They show tiles for Word, Excel, etc. but the closest one see of actual content is some bar graphs on display but not being created. Everything else being demonstrated is social media, light web browsing, angry looking Catholic schoolgirls, and corporate break dancers. And most, if not all (I don't recall seeing a desktop in use), of the emphasis has been on tablets.

 

[Night Hawk]

"And most, if not all (I don't recall seeing a desktop in use), of the emphasis has been on tablets." says it all! In fact it is actually best rephrased as "All of the emphasis has been on tablets."! Windows 8's gui change has simply been a marketing gimic to endorse the new lineup of Surface tablets to start with. It was made available for desktops and laptops but isn't anything you would expect to see as a major desktop release since it is based on the tablet platform.

 

[lehnerus2000]

... angry looking Catholic schoolgirls, ...

I guess they don't like W8 either.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

... angry looking Catholic schoolgirls, ...

I guess they don't like W8 either.

:roflmao:

 

[Dallas 7]

... angry looking Catholic schoolgirls, ...

I guess they don't like W8 either.

Can't blame 'em for that. LOL

 

[Indianatone]

Anyone can touch a screen! = child Tablet OS for Tablet MS is trying to pass things off as being "oh so simple a child could.... blah blah blah" to cover the fact that the whole thing from the start was about pushing tablets not desktops!

What all this shows is that Windows 8 has been nothing more than a "Marketing Tool" for their Surface Tablets as well as the new Compact edition when found to be an embedded OS except for one thing! OEMs can modify as well as develop their own gui for the embedded form of Windows! Note part of the description from the Wikipedia page seen at Windows CE

Microsoft Windows CE (now officially known as Windows Embedded Compact and previously also known as Windows Embedded CE,[4][5] and sometimes abbreviated WinCE) is an operating system developed by Microsoft for embedded systems. Windows CE is a distinct operating system and kernel, rather than a trimmed-down version of desktop Windows.[6] It is not to be confused with Windows Embedded Standard which is an NT-based componentized version of desktop Microsoft Windows.

Microsoft licenses Windows CE to OEMs and device makers. The OEMs and device makers can modify and create their own user interfaces and experiences, with Windows CE providing the technical foundation to do so.
The current version of Windows Embedded Compact supports Intel x86 and compatibles, MIPS, and ARM processors.

And as we know OEMs this time around decided on their own to come up with their gui as far as Start menu and things when seeing what 8 was going to turn out as!

I have an old RCA 50" DLP TV still working well that runs Windows CE software. Even has a web browser and it is not impossible to catch a virus there is just nowhere for it to execute to. So Win Ce pops in in the stragest of places. Yes the TV takes a minute or two to boot up and come on after plugging in the AC.

 

[Night Hawk]

Compact editions are not infallable either. But you will find on something like a smartbook there are places you can't log into with one since the form of IE used is simply too limited! Plus if you don't have a 1ghz or faster cpu onboard that can spell another hardware headache! On average you see one of those now with a 1-1.2ghz cpu and 1-2gb of memory. Some allow some expansion where you pump it up from 1gb to 2gb memory wise but are still not made for much!

For me the place of any smartbook, tablet, or smartphone for that matter is while you are out at a mall or parking lot and need to look something up fast without driving all the back home to get on the desktop or laptop. They make a fast convenience but will never actually replace the desktop platform! Now Way! Hose'

To get any serious work done you still have the need for a fully operational desktop type system you can expand on as well as see made into a productive workstation. You wouldn't want to be trying to work with CAD or some engineering or even planning a few VMs on what? An IPad? It just doesn't happen! Think you can tun a good sized business/office type app on your smartphone?

Well obviously we already know the answer to that one! So you have to look at why out of the blue MS would trash a working desktop concept seeing a progressive trend begin and then go off on the wild with tablet?

The conclusion can't be that hard to figure out when MS has been stressing OS for ARM and Surface does wonders! Then they go out and call it Windows? And then of course as we are now seeing Windows 8 tanks like a crate! You know they are going to need something special about Blue to make it worth the effort.

 

[Boozad]

I don't know if I'm being a bit too simplistic here but why don't MS take Windows down two different routes that run side by side, Desktop (7) and Mobile (8)? Obviously 8 was a reaction to to the iNonsense but all it ended up doing was alienating the PC users who know Windows inside out and, as mentioned previously, rely heavily on how the OS works for actually doing serious stuff. We're not all cool kids who need to let the world know we can't decide what to have for breakfast.

There are now two markets out there, MS should cater to both instead of trying to shoehorn both into one, it was never going to work. And more importantly, support both products going forwards, I dread to think of the day that support for 7 stops in order to shepherd us into the new way of 'computing'.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
I'm afraid this whole Mobile Vs Desktop thing as far as Ms is concerned came down to Politics and Corporate Egos. There probably isn't ANYBODY on this planet who would agree that a mobile phone type of GUI is suitable for a DESKTOP. So it became "Politics of the Boardroom".

I rather wish the people responsible had seen the British TV Program "The Apprentice" where you get some incredibly "corporate clone-ey" types complete with business suits and mandatory hair gel being sent out on various tasks - usually making a right royal screw up of it and then a stern looking Lord Sugar (he's a millionaire well known business man in England) points a finger at some poor hapless individual and says "Your Fired".

If you've never seen it this link *might* work -- not sure if you are outside the UK - I go via a proxy so that always works.

BBC One - The Apprentice

I rather wish that the same fate would be meted out to the person(s) who commissioned the W8 Metro GUI for use on desktops / laptops. This should also be done on a public TV program.

Incidentally even on a smart phone I find if you install say 20 - 30 apps the interface gets annoying as well -- so Metro itself even for mobile devices has limitations too. If you install say 50 - 60 apps (and some people do I gather) on your phones then endless scrolling gets a real pain and iif you have to re-organise these for decent accessibility on a phone you can see how nonsensical the whole thing is on a Desktop OS.

(I've fiddled around with W8 and apart from the Metro thingy it's not that horrible an OS - but most people won't have the time / patience / skill to organise something that should work straight out of the box. Installing classical Windows applications is also a mess as every wretched .EXE file generates a tile whether it's the main application executable or one that's called from within it. This means often another lot of fiddling around after installing anything -- not what people want).

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Night Hawk]

Why? Don't you just love all the extra "glamour right in your face" type mentality deployed? In MS thinking "we wouldn't want anyone to have a problem finding their favorite exe files once we do away with any "COMMON SENSE" approaches to our new version!" The bulk of that is simply from every Tablet or phone app being an exe only at times for the small limited platfdrm. When installing a normal software on a pc however you get all those help files and docs becoming "tiles in your face" immediately and what next? Scroll, scroll, scroll your life away frustrating down the tunnel vision. Merrily merrily scroll from screen to screen to screen to screen to screen find Something! daaaaa.... Now as far as two consecutive or side by side routes to take MS only has a "one track mind" in that area! "Android and IPad were simply not going to be allowed to grab up all the market shares even we have to dump...!" is the type of Marketing strategy imposed on the otherwise could have been normal desktop type OS with less features while still offering a few new ones. But some at MS wanted "everything must look the same this time around!" and working the same doesn't mean it works for much! It certainly isn't that difficult to move around once you can figure out the upside down inside out approach being used as well as dumping a 3rd party app on for the somewhat experienced user. The main problem however is that the ones that would look into 3rd party wares are not those that EXPECT TO FIND what is needed already present in the OS! Those who want to customize all the time won't hesitate to jump on Start8, Classic Shell, or some other app if not familar with a guide on how to bring the Start orb/button/manu back without any app.

 

[Indianatone]

I don't know if I'm being a bit too simplistic here but why don't MS take Windows down two different routes that run side by side, Desktop (7) and Mobile (8)? Obviously 8 was a reaction to to the iNonsense but all it ended up doing was alienating the PC users who know Windows inside out and, as mentioned previously, rely heavily on how the OS works for actually doing serious stuff. We're not all cool kids who need to let the world know we can't decide what to have for breakfast.

There are now two markets out there, MS should cater to both instead of trying to shoehorn both into one, it was never going to work. And more importantly, support both products going forwards, I dread to think of the day that support for 7 stops in order to shepherd us into the new way of 'computing'.

Yep, proir to XP the NT kernel (NT4 Windows 2000)was the business software for power users and enterprise use with security and configuration options to lock down the desktop how you needed it. They merged the two Operating Systems software lines for numerous reasons which were sensible. To me it would make perfect sense to diverge them and just go with 8 on tablets and touch screen laptops and desktops and power user laptops should use 7. I can think that and I am disability yet over paid executives can't or may be won't. What happened to common sense?