Requesting tips on building PCs

[kucing13]

Judging by it,I think i'm gonna wait a little longer before i get Ati 5xxx card.

 

[thefabe]

Well, there are 3 things you should really NOT skimp on (especially for gaming):
1 Motherboard
2 CPU
3 GPU
(4) RAM
(5) HDD

I will assume you already have a nice monitor, KB, mouse, speakers, etc.

First thing you want to choose is your CPU. Pick your top 3 choices, and look for a motherboard that fits your top choice.
For the CPU, I recommend getting a good model, but don't worry about its speed! I say this because it makes MUCH more sense to simply overclock it instead. For that reason I recommend the AMD Phenom x4. Just make sure the clock multiplier is unlocked.
For the motherboard you want a high quality one. ESPECIALLY if you are considering OCing. Make sure it can take up to as much RAM as you want to add (ever). Make sure the RAM slots are compatible with your CPU (i.e. DDR, DDR2, DDR3), and it has the PCIe slots you need for the GPU (2 if you want more than 1) and the PCI slots for expansion cards.

Next up is RAM. Pick good sticks, but you don't need super high quality gaming modules. I use the base Crucial modules, and they work great. Again, the timings can be OCed later if you want, so you don't need the top of the line.

After this, your GPU. If you want good forward compatibility, go for the ATI 5870. The 5770 is good too if you don't want to spend that much. The 260GTX is an awesome card, but it does not have DX11. Again, you can EASILY OC your graphics card.

Last up would be the HDD. 7200rpm is standard, and fine in general. Get an SSD for the OS and games if you want, but they can be pricey. The 10000rpm Velociraptor might not be a bad choice instead.

The case is important too, as it can affect your temps. Get a case with good fans (or go Watercooling, but that is pricey). As long as it fits your stuff (watch out if you get a big GPU), it should be fine.

~Lordbob

LB I didn't read all the posts but you left one very improtant item out POWER SUPPLY. Posibly 2
And after just replacing my CPU cooler I have to add it to the never skimp on list especialy if your going to overclock.
I did and just paid the price spent the last 5 hours rebuilding my system when my Masscool 6 heat pipe 80mm "internal fan" sandwhiched between my fins needed replacement couldn't do this without taking the motherboard out.
So I purchased the Corsair closed system water vooler for your CPU H50 I've been pushing on this site as the replacement Newegg.com - CORSAIR Cooling Hydro Series CWCH50-1 120mm High Performance CPU Cooler I also spent the time to mold a convex top on my case drilled it full pf holes and installed a 120mm Evercool blue led fan pulling hot air out, since the Corsair reccomends you install the fan to pull in cool air.
Needless to say with my disabilities it was a chore, but now my CPU is running at 32c idle and 38c full 3 hour GTAIV gaming session.
My point being make sure you spend the money on a QUALITY POWER SUPPLY AND A CPU COOLER. JMO. Fabe

 

[Lordbob75]

Well, there are 3 things you should really NOT skimp on (especially for gaming):
1 Motherboard
2 CPU
3 GPU
(4) RAM
(5) HDD

I will assume you already have a nice monitor, KB, mouse, speakers, etc.

First thing you want to choose is your CPU. Pick your top 3 choices, and look for a motherboard that fits your top choice.
For the CPU, I recommend getting a good model, but don't worry about its speed! I say this because it makes MUCH more sense to simply overclock it instead. For that reason I recommend the AMD Phenom x4. Just make sure the clock multiplier is unlocked.
For the motherboard you want a high quality one. ESPECIALLY if you are considering OCing. Make sure it can take up to as much RAM as you want to add (ever). Make sure the RAM slots are compatible with your CPU (i.e. DDR, DDR2, DDR3), and it has the PCIe slots you need for the GPU (2 if you want more than 1) and the PCI slots for expansion cards.

Next up is RAM. Pick good sticks, but you don't need super high quality gaming modules. I use the base Crucial modules, and they work great. Again, the timings can be OCed later if you want, so you don't need the top of the line.

After this, your GPU. If you want good forward compatibility, go for the ATI 5870. The 5770 is good too if you don't want to spend that much. The 260GTX is an awesome card, but it does not have DX11. Again, you can EASILY OC your graphics card.

Last up would be the HDD. 7200rpm is standard, and fine in general. Get an SSD for the OS and games if you want, but they can be pricey. The 10000rpm Velociraptor might not be a bad choice instead.

The case is important too, as it can affect your temps. Get a case with good fans (or go Watercooling, but that is pricey). As long as it fits your stuff (watch out if you get a big GPU), it should be fine.

~Lordbob

LB I didn't read ak=ll the posts but you left one very improtaqnt item out POWER SUPPLY.
And after just rep[lacing my CPU cooler I have to add it to the never skimp on list especialy if your going to overclock.
I did and just paid the price spent the last 5 hours rebuilding my system when my Masscool 6 heat pipe 80mm "internal fan" sandwhiched between my fins needed replacement couldn't do this without taking the motherboard out.
So I purchased the Corsair closed system water vooler for your CPU H50 I've been pushing on this site as the replacement Newegg.com - CORSAIR Cooling Hydro Series CWCH50-1 120mm High Performance CPU Cooler I also spent the time to mold a convex top onmy case drilled it full pf hole and installed a 120mm evercool blue led fan pulling hot air out, since the corsair reccomends you install the fan to pull in cool air.
Needless to sday with my disabilities it was a chore, but now my CPU is running at 32c idle and 38 fullo 3hour GTAIV gaming session.
My point being make sure you spemnf the money on a QUALITY POER SUPPLY AND A CPU COOLERJMO. Fabe

Yeah, I realize that. Thanks for mentioning.

To me, a quality PSU with more than enough Watts is just fine. There is really not THAT much more to it. Just don't get a really cheap one.

Though modular would be nice.

~Lordbob

 

[Fumz]

... How do you suggest I get the most "bang for my buck"? I love gaming so it would have to be quite a decent computer. What parts do you think would be the best for me? Parts for everything I mean.... CPU, GFX Cards, Sound Cards, etc, everything new...

That's actually a very easy question to answer, as long as you know where to look.

I see a lot of guys have pointed you towards AMD dual cores. Don't. While guys may have their reasons for getting AMD's, their reasons are not yours: "best bang for my buck gaming performance".

As for the cpu, there's really no question as to which cpu currently delivers the best bang for your buck in terms of gaming performance, the Intel i5 750: Best Gaming CPU: $195 And Up : Best Gaming CPUs For The Money: January '10 An i5 will give you ~ the same gaming performance as a $1,000.00 cpu, and that's just flat out something AMD cannot currently do: Intel Core i7-975 EE and Core i5-750 in Contemporary Games - X-bit labs

Do not get a dual core; you will be sorry. You will often hear that, "games don't yet take advantage of quad cores". This is not entirely accurate. It was accurate about a year ago, but today's games do benefit, some greatly, from 4 cores. Going forward, you will not want a dual core.

Motherboard and RAM: there's no price difference between an AMD system and an Intel 1156 system in this respect. You can get both a board and a 4GB kit of RAM for both for ~ $100.00 each. With both systems, you don't "need" to buy the latest greatest DDR3 2000MHz kits as, in terms of gaming performance, DDR3 1066-DDR3 1600 all deliver about the same performance. For an extra $10.00 or $20.00 you may want to look for a kit with tighter timings? I personally find that expense worth it.

PSU: don't skimp. It is the most important item in your machine. Without a decent PSU none of your hardware means squat. Corsair, Seasonic, Silverstone, Enermax Galaxy, XFX, and PC Power & Cooling are what you'll want to be looking at.

Graphics Card: As far as "best bang for your buck goes", that all depends on your price point. For ~ $200.00, the best bang is the GTX 275 (if you can find one, my brother in law just did). For a few dollars less is the GTX 260. For a few more, there's the ATI 5850. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/xfx-radeon-hd5830.html. At the $300.00 price point, no question, 5850. Upwards of that, the GTX 480. If money is no object, the 5970.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I would suggest you invest in a decent DX11 card. Over the years I've never been overly concerned about DX upgrades as they haven't really been all that noticeable to me while gaming (always too focused on the action); however, DX11 is really sweet, and many times I find myself amazed at the sheer beauty of what my screen is showing me.

 

[HMonk]

Thank you VERY VERY much everyone that has helped me, I'm off to do some researching as you suggested and shall return after a short period of time....

Regards,
FLaTLiN3D

You are on the road less traveled, i.e., doing your own research and making personal, pragmatic, and logical choices, always remembering that components function as a unit.

Three questions I always ask myself vis-à-vis benchmarking or so-called top-ten lists of anything:

1. On what kind of setup was the component tested;
2. How was the component put through its paces;
3. What does all of this matter to me and my intended application?

Finally, the next time you drive down the street, notice how many different mfrs, models, styles, colors, and types of vehicles you see. Then come back to this forum and, in the Chillout Room, start a thread asking what kind of vehicle you might consider. Believe it or not, you will find there are people who tell you what you SHOULD buy.

Keep up the research.

Monk

 

[Fumz]

I didn't tell the OP what he "should" buy, I just answered his question: "What's the best bang for the buck?"

Not, "what's adequate?" or "what will get me by?", but, "what's the best?" What the best is, per dollar spent, is a demonstrably fact. The links I provided are but a few; there are many which arrive at the same conclusion.

I provided the OP this option only because no one else in this thread has. My opinion has been absent here save for suggesting he go for tighter timed RAM.

 

[FLaTLiN3D]

How would I go about deciding if all of the hardware will function properly together? Would I have to research every part individually?

Also, I realize that in video cards, GDDR3 is better than DDR3, however, I was looking at this GDDR3 card, 896MB, for ~200$. On the same page, there was a 1GB DDR3 card for ~75$. Is GDDR3 REALLY that much of an improvement? Also, what about it IS improved? Because a 128MB gap makes quite a bit of difference some times, would I be better off getting the more expensive card with less memory?

Does thermal compound have to be reapplied? If so, how often?

Thank you,
FLaTLiN3D

 

[Fumz]

You have to make sure the cpu socket type corresponds to the motherboard socket. For example, the socket for an i5 is an LGA (land grid array, meaning no pins) 1156. Make sure you select an 1156 motherboard. Likewise, if you chose a socket AM3 AMD cpu, you'll want to get the corresponding AMD board.

With graphics cards and memory, you really don't have to worry about it; the cards you're looking at will all work with any board you choose. The RAM is the same. DDR3 will fit into any board that supports DDR3.

Just come back when you've picked parts and link them.

 

[HMonk]

First off, to be very technically correct GDDR3 is properly applied to graphics (thus the G); in practice people refer to DDR3 when talking about gfx RAM.

Differences between GDDR3 and GDDR2:

GDDR3: increases bandwidth, draws less power, thus produces less heat, can reset and flush the memory module (v. GDDR2 which flushes on reboot).

How do you choose - using gfx cards as an example: what is its chipset; what HW/SW does it support; how much memory does it have; how much memory does your system have?

Post back if that does not address your concerns.

Monk

 

[FLaTLiN3D]

@Monk - I don't quite understand.... You told me the difference between GDDR2 and GDDR3 but you didn't give much information on DDR3, you say that it's used when referring to GFX RAM, but Newegg seems to use both DDR3 and GDDR3 to describe their cards.... Here's what I'm getting from your post: GDDR3 is faster, uses less resources, and won't overheat as easily... How do I go about checking what HW/SW is supports?

@Fumz - Thank you for your help. I will come back with parts after I do a bit more reading, I'd like to become more independent instead of relying on this community for my every need.... What exactly is 1156? Is that the type of "plug-in" that my mobo would need to have if I chose to buy a processor with 1156?

FLaTLiN3D

 

[Fumz]

Don't get overly concerned with the type of graphics memory any particular card has; it's really unimportant. Just because card A has GDDR5 does not mean that it's better than a card with GDDR3. You have to look at how the card performs in games because there's a lot more to it than just the type of memory it uses.

Seek out video card benchmarks to see how one card plays games vs another. Since performance can sometimes vary from game to game, if possible, seek out benches of your favorite games.

1156 is a type of socket. Cpu's fit onto motherboards via a socket. For example, Core 2 Duo's are LGA 775, i5's are 1156 and high end i7's are 1366. Current AMD's use the AM3 socket.

As you read you'll get more familiar with this ever changing aspect of cpus.

 

[smarteyeball]

Three questions I always ask myself vis-à-vis benchmarking or so-called top-ten lists of anything:

1. On what kind of setup was the component tested;
2. How was the component put through its paces;
3. What does all of this matter to me and my intended application?

Very true.

Using graphic card benchmarks as a reference:

The FPS results of CARD A may make you go 'wow' - until you realise that the base test system is some highly overclocked beast in which you would never achieve similar results in your own machine with the same CARD A.

Settings such as drivers, resolutions, xAnti-Aliasing, xAnisotropic Filtering etc used also have a big impact on results.

You have to base your judgment on what comes the closest to your machine specs and intended usage.

It's also similar to synthetic CPU/RAM tests. Often that big 'wow' number equates to no discernible difference in 'real world usage'.

****

I've glossed through the thread, so forgive me if this question has been asked:

What is the Primary intended use for this new machine?

► Pure gaming, good all rounder etc?

► And how long do you plan to use this machine before another complete upgrade?

► Down the track, do you ever plan to run a multiple GPU set up? (Crossfire/SLI)

► Down the track, (once researched a little more ) do you plan to ever overclock?



Either way, A 4 core should be a realistic minimum for 'longevity'. DDR3 for ram and a motherboard with USB 3.0 and SATA III. (The latter is if you are planning to planning to keep the machine for several years)


As it's already been pointed out, more and more applications and games are starting to benefit from the extra cores. Dual core CPU's are starting to show their limitations.




AMD / AM3 = Great selection of mobos + wider range of compatible CPU's.

More 'upgrade path' options depending on chosen motherboard. ie an AMD Phenom II 955 overclocks well but can still be replaced by the new hexa-cores.

Intel 775 = Essentially End of Life, but a Q9xx + DDR3 + CARD X will still deliver good gaming/desktop performance. However, since it's E.O.L, I'd personally rule out a 775 based system.

Intel 1156 = Great selection of boards, but virtually non-existent upgrade path as it also already superseded.

However an OC'ed 750 will still give great performance for gaming/desktop usage.

However, one limitation here is that the P55 chipset does not allow for for full x16/x16 of crossfired/SLI'ed cards. This is not a real big issue for current gen cards, but will become one in times to come.

Intel 1366 = Again, great selection of mobos', but also already superseded. The only real 'upgrade option' is intels hexacore, the the i7 980x (and rumored 970). However the 1366 socket set up is not bang for buck.


Realistically, the 'bang for buck field' is either a choice between an AMD/AM3 based socket, or an intel 1156 based socket. Both setups will still be quite uesfull for several years yet.

TBH, all the above sockets are already out-dated - but waiting another X of months is never ending process.


At this stage, the video card choice should not be that important.

There are plenty of cheap and decent cards currently available from both camps that will suffice until the next ATI/NVIDIA release. Even if you don't buy one of the 'new cards' - the price will drop on current 'flagship' cards.

 

[HMonk]

@FlatLin3D


All I am saying in response to your question is that the gfx RAM in question is properly referred to as GDDR3 not DDR3 although people use the latter more often than not.

So technically speaking GDDR3 is the RAM on the gfx card, DDR3 is your system RAM. They are entirely different.

Monk

 

[Fumz]

True, if the base system is, for example, a highly clocked 1366 i7 to test out graphics cards, and yours is an Athlon X2 or X3, then you cannot look at those results and expect to get the same. However, those types of tests will tell you which card is faster than which, and decreasing clock speed and/or cpu strength isn't going to change the dynamics of the test. A 5970 is still going to be the fastest video card on the market whether you pair it with that 3.7GHz i7 or the X2. You won't get the same FPS running the X2, but you will know that you can't do any better as long as you have the X2.

I respectfully disagree though with the idea that the AM3 is better in terms of an upgrade path. It's not that there aren't more options, there certainly are, it's that all of the AMD options perform worse than the i5. That would leave you paying for two cores and still not getting the same performance than if you had initially spent the extra $20.00 for the i5.

Currently, an i5 at stock clocks beats the Phenom II X4 965 Black edition even when the Phenom is clocked to 4GHz. If that weren't impressive enough, the i5, again at stock clocks, beats the 6 Core Phenom 1090 in 3 out of 4 of these benches.

Six Cores from AMD: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition and Phenom II X6 1055T CPU Review (page 6) - X-bit labs
Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition ver. 2.0: AMD Introduces C3 Processor Stepping (page 7) - X-bit labs

The results indicate that the new LGA1156 Lynnfield processors boast the best gaming potential among all tested mainstream solutions. It even comes to the point when Core i5-750 processor working in nominal mode (with enabled Turbo Boost technology) easily outpaces Phenom II X4 965 processor overclocked to 4.0 GHz. Unfortunately, this is pretty sad for AMD proving one more time that Stars (K10) microarchitecture is inevitably becoming outdated.

The fact that the 6 core Intel is crushing the competition, by almost double the fps in some cases, negates any suggestion that the games aren't optimized for 6 cores; this only means that this is an accurate demonstration of the cpu strength AMD brings to the table.

 

[smarteyeball]

I respectfully disagree though with the idea that the AM3 is better in terms of an upgrade path. It's not that there aren't more options, there certainly are, it's that all of the AMD options perform worse than the i5. That would leave you paying for two cores and still not getting the same performance than if you had initially spent the extra $20.00 for the i5.

Currently, an i5 at stock clocks beats the Phenom II X4 965 Black edition even when the Phenom is clocked to 4GHz. If that weren't impressive enough, the i5, again at stock clocks, beats the 6 Core Phenom 1090 in 3 out of 4 of these benches.

I was just trying to be unbiased and give alternative options mate.

I probably could have expanded more, but it was hard to concentrate with my GF talking non-stop into my ear while I was typing - although I did mention that 4 cores should be a minimum

 

[HMonk]

I was just trying to be unbiased and give alternative options mate.

Kudos to you mate!

There are an abundance of gurus in life poised to heap onto the unsuspecting what they SHOULD buy or what is the BEST thing to buy. In so doing, they ignore manifold viable options, all of whose pros, cons, cost, and consequences (performance) are best weighed by the buyer with a focus on what is best for him or her.

Those of us who have obtained a modicum of wisdom appreciate that, when there are viable options, there is NEVER a best thing to do - EXCEPT - what is best for us.

I am not a judge but I dare say, mate, you have, at least, achieved that modicum of wisdom.

Monk

 

[Fumz]

I was just trying to be unbiased and give alternative options mate.

I probably could have expanded more, but it was hard to concentrate with my GF talking non-stop into my ear while I was typing - although I did mention that 4 cores should be a minimum

Oh I got it; no worries... I'm just trying to counterbalance the AMD fanboyism with a little performance fanboyism. It's a long thread, and I think the OP's intended use may have been forgotten? Great game performance. Help me out here... how badass is that i7 of yours?

There are an abundance of gurus in life poised to heap onto the unsuspecting what they SHOULD buy or what is the BEST thing to buy. In so doing, they ignore manifold viable options, all of whose pros, cons, cost, and consequences (performance) are best weighed by the buyer with a focus on what is best for him or her.

Yep.

What do I do: 1. First choose CPU... I ALWAYS choose AMD...

 

[HMonk]

1. First choose CPU (brain): what, whose. For my very specific reasons, which are not germane to this thread, per se, I ALWAYS choose AMD. Here, rather than trying to be provocative, I anticipate rejoinders to the contrary, which will enforce my point that everyone has their own/borrowed opinions. The question that needs to be answered is always, "What do you want?"

@Fumz: To me, quoting people out of context - to a self-aggrandizing end - bespeaks an unbecoming intellectual dishonesty. That, of course, is just my opinion. Regardless, the entire quote, above, is consistent with my philosophy of assisting people in finding their own way, i.e., "What do you want?". My quote clearly acknowledges that my opinions (vis-à-vis AMD) "are not germane." Furthermore, by anticipating that "rejoinders to the contrary" would ensue, I aptly pointed out that "everyone has their own/borrowed opinions." What I did not anticipate was dogma.

Monk

 

[johnwillyums]

Don't fall out guys. you're both posting really good stuff that will help the O.P.

 

[Fumz]

Intellectually dishonest? Pot, meet kettle.

Monk,

I didn't take you out of context. You've gone on and on, sometimes making bold entire posts, about doing one's due diligence in order to get good parts capable of doing what you want them to. You've stressed, over and over, the importance of finding out what does what best, and to not only look at things like cpu strength, but also power consumption and all the other factors that lead one to an informed decision. However, in the end, you ignore all your own advice and always buy brand X.

1. First choose CPU (brain):I ALWAYS choose AMD.
2. Next I choose mobo (skeleton): I ALWAYS choose ASUS. Why? Doesn't matter.
3. Next I choose gfx card. I ALWAYS choose ATi for very specific reasons.

I'm sorry, but brand X simply is not always the best option. Unless you're really biased, you've got to allow yourself to be more flexible and open minded when buying parts. Some years company A does better, some years it's B... such is life.

This is a thread about best bang for your buck gaming performance. I gave the OP the generally recognized answer to his question, and I backed up my statements with sources. To this, you replied:

Three questions I always ask myself vis-à-vis benchmarking or so-called top-ten lists of anything:

1. On what kind of setup was the component tested;
2. How was the component put through its paces;
3. What does all of this matter to me and my intended application?

Finally, the next time you drive down the street, notice how many different mfrs, models, styles, colors, and types of vehicles you see. Then come back to this forum and, in the Chillout Room, start a thread asking what kind of vehicle you might consider. Believe it or not, you will find there are people who tell you what you SHOULD buy.

Really? Answering the man's question and supporting that answer with sources, in your view, becomes, "telling him what he should buy?" There was something skewed with testing methodology in the links I provided? Really? Intellectually dishonest indeed... and a wee bit passive-aggressive.

You've been quite the advocate for AMD. Why? You don't say; you only suggest that it isn't germane. Perhaps it is? Perhaps it might help us understand what would motivate you to make such a patently false statement:

I prefer gfx quality and stability for gaming and AMD CPUs/mobos and ATi gfx cards are designed with each other in mind.

Care to back that up with sources? The implication, obviously, being that ATI cards run better on AMD chipsets... so show us. Throw up a link or two that demonstrates ATI cards running better on AMD chipsets. Honestly, it's a ridiculous statement just on it's face. Even my 12 year old nephew knows that ATI's drivers have been causing great instability since before he was born.

As of this writing, there are very few apps that take advantage of four core processors; similarly, there are very few apps written for x64. Regardless, very few people use computers for the type of work that require the extraordinary capability offered by really high-end CPUs (e.g., serious number crunching, video editing). My bottom line: until I join NASCAR, I do not need a car with 750HP.

Wrong. Gaming is the NASCAR of the computing world, and again, this thread is about gaming performance... besides, the fact you're OC'ing your core and running crossfire is more than enough to kill your own argument to the contrary. You're certainly not overclocking because you need to craft well written letters to the condo association.

Any game using the Unreal Engine will benefit from quads; this has been true for a number of years now. Any console port will benefit from quad cores because they are written for multi-core systems. Most all games currently being developed will take advantage of quad cores. Just because every game ever made can't take advantage of quads doesn't mean you shouldn't get one.

Instead of rejecting my posts on the i5 out of hand, maybe you would have been better served following the links I provided? You would have found out about all the sweet gaming goodness that is Turbo-Boost.

At least I know what my bias is; it's always been towards price/performance... so if you, or some other guy comes in advocating AMD's when they're not really the best bang for the buck, and I can prove they aren't, try and not get offended, and try and refrain from tossing up thinly veiled insults.