Windows 7 & 16-bit

[Cheemag]

Many VM experts say you cannot access the host machine's hardware - not true, but it's too cumbersome for me.

What hardware are you trying to access but having issues with? What apps are you trying to run that you can't in Windows 7 x64?

You may not believe that someone prefers the MSDOS Q-Edit - there's nothing like it available in any flavour of Windows. It can do text manipulations which no other text editor can.

Also LIST.COM - invaluable as it will open any file type and display the result; will allow you to browse a disc in a DOS fashion, copy, move, rename etc.

The DOS prompt is often a much more efficient file manipulation tool and less cumbersome than the GUI. E.g. XCOPY is one example. This is of course fine in Windows 7 also. I have CMD in the quick launch in both XP and Win-7 ! However, I cannot do a >DIR in 7 then >LIST to browse the directory and view the content of any file in the directory. (

 

[Cheemag]

Many VM experts say you cannot access the host machine's hardware - not true, but it's too cumbersome for me.

What hardware are you trying to access but having issues with? What apps are you trying to run that you can't in Windows 7 x64?

As for the hardware: in the VM, you can't access the host soundcard to take in external audio; I haven't tried it, but I doubt you'd be able to access a printer, scanner or webcam.

 

[DeaconFrost]

You can access any USB device you want in VMs. It's actually just as simple as checking a box. I don't know about the audio part, but don't poo-poo and idea without trying it or looking into it.

 

[Cheemag]

Deacon Frost wrote:

>You can access any USB device you want in VMs. It's actually just as simple as >checking a box. I don't know about the audio part, but don't poo-poo and idea >without trying it or looking into it.

I have tried it. You have to use a USB soundcard if you want to take audio from outside. However, you then lose the ability to record streaming sound, although that may be possible with the VM's virtual soundcard. So far I haven't tried any other peripherals in the VM.

 

[McGoon]

DOSBox

I run 32-bit Win7 Professional as a virtual machine in VMWare Fusion on a Mac OS10 notebook.

DOSBox does a tremendous job running Q.exe - The Semware Editor Jr. version 4.0 (and I agree: it runs rings around anything available in Windows, and even Emacs) In the 32-bit installation, it runs passable well from the CMD prompt, as well.

The Readme.txt file in DOSBox's documentation directory contains instructions for fine-tuning the application. It runs windowed by default - if you want full-screen, type Alt-Enter, or you can change the FULLSCREEN=false default setting by following the directions in the readme.txt file.

DOSBox seems to handle most DOS apps well - my worry is how to run 16-bit Windows apps from Win7 64-bit (once all the available hardware goes to 64-bit) without having to run a 32-bit VM that will consume an additional network license. Does anyone know of anyone with plans to offer an emulator to run Win-16 apps from within a 64-bit Win7 OS?

 

[oreo27]

I run 32-bit Win7 Professional as a virtual machine in VMWare Fusion on a Mac OS10 notebook.

DOSBox does a tremendous job running Q.exe - The Semware Editor Jr. version 4.0 (and I agree: it runs rings around anything available in Windows, and even Emacs) In the 32-bit installation, it runs passable well from the CMD prompt, as well.

The Readme.txt file in DOSBox's documentation directory contains instructions for fine-tuning the application. It runs windowed by default - if you want full-screen, type Alt-Enter, or you can change the FULLSCREEN=false default setting by following the directions in the readme.txt file.

DOSBox seems to handle most DOS apps well - my worry is how to run 16-bit Windows apps from Win7 64-bit (once all the available hardware goes to 64-bit) without having to run a 32-bit VM that will consume an additional network license. Does anyone know of anyone with plans to offer an emulator to run Win-16 apps from within a 64-bit Win7 OS?

Hi,

From experience with my brother in law's scenario. We were able to run DosBox on a Win 7 Pro x64 perfectly.

There was no need whatsoever to run a VM on it. DosBox worked perfectly on the 64 bit OS.

 

[carwiz]

1. There is a Windows version of Q-Edit.
2. List.com is DOS based FAT/FAT32, Windows is NT and allows much larger files. And, you can change directories at the click of the mouse.
3. Don't know why you would want audio with Q-Edit or List.com. (Your primary argument against Windows.)
4. USB was not available in DOS. Don't know why you need it now.
5. Well written 16-bit software will run in native mode Windows 7-x64. I'm running a 1999 version of 16-bit QuickBooks Pro as I type. The only situation that isn't handled is the QB driver for print but it's easily handled in another way.
6. You don't need to start a VM every time you want to run a program on it. Leave the VM running and start/stop individual programs at will. You can flip back and forth between Windows 7 and a VM machine throughout the day. It's like sitting next to another PC. You wouldn't boot that every time you wanted to run a program either. It's another advantage of x64 and more memory. And more memory is a lot cheaper than another PC.

No amount of persuasion will convince you to join the 21st Century or that there are better, faster and more convenient methods to work outside of DOS. DOS wouldn't let you run multiple programs or switch between them at a click. There was no click since there was no Mouse. Your ongoing quasi-argument for DOS and the lack of Windows support for hardware has no merit and your concerns have been answered two fold. I fail to see the reasoning behind your continued snuffing of Windows.

 

[McGoon]

1.
...No amount of persuasion will convince you to join the 21st Century or that there are better, faster and more convenient methods to work outside of DOS. DOS wouldn't let you run multiple programs or switch between them at a click. There was no click since there was no Mouse. Your ongoing quasi-argument for DOS and the lack of Windows support for hardware has no merit and your concerns have been answered two fold. I fail to see the reasoning behind your continued snuffing of Windows.

Wow. Pretty itchy trigger finger on that ol' flamethrower, buckaroo. Must be the full moon, or maybe the solar storms. But thanks for your very constructive assistance.

I haven't seen anyone "snuffing Windows" on this thread yet. But new is not by definition better. There are tremendous 16-bit apps (DOS and Win) - many of which businesses are built around - that have been "upgraded" to useless bloatware or out and out discontinued and for which there is no "modern" equivalent. I run a number of custom VB6 applications which represent a significant investment - and which work fine, except under 64-bit Win7. I'm not about to whack my profit margin replacing them unnecessarily. I'm just one of a number of people trying to find ways to continue using these good old programs and I don't think it's in any way unreasonable to do so. I can run 'em fine in Linux under WINE - there has to be a way to do it in Windows.

The downside to running a 32-bit VM is that it represents another license - and for MS SB Server clients - another client license on the server. Not a huge investment for one machine, but when spread across an entire business the expense adds up, and is particularly annoying when there's no reason the OS couldn't have included 16-bit support in the first place.

The bright side is that, apparently, Microsoft has seen the light and realized as well that there's a genuine need for support for legacy 16-bit apps, and they've included a 16-bit support switch in Win 8 beta.

Windows 8 Comes with Built-in Option to Turn On/Off 16-Bit Application Support - Tweaking with Vishal

Good thinking on their part - don't make glue if the old horse still pulls. When 32-bit hardware starts to dry up, we'll just skip 7 and move on to 8.

Thanks again.

 

[carwiz]

Point taken.
Good tip on Windows 8, However; 16-bit support is only available on the 32-bit Developer version. Could it be MS is simply making it easier for developers to transition to 32/64 bit apps? It's not in the Consumer version. Perhaps it may appear in "Pro" versions later.

 

[McGoon]

Developer version only?

Dang! If I had a wish, it would be that there was some sort of direct feedback access to the developers at MS. Somebody needs to make them understand that 16-bit support is essential. The nation's economy is not going to improve if businesses everywhere have to summarily chuck perfectly good software just because MS decides they don't want to support it anymore.

I'm thoroughly impressed with VMWare, and I'd be happy to go that route, but the cost of so doing is

1 64-bit Win license (host OS) +
1 32-bit (obsolete) Win license (VM)+
1 Win server license (host OS)+
1 Win (obsolete - perhaps dangerous) Win server license+
VMWare license= business as usual.

That's just not an acceptable solution. If anyone on the forum has some ideas of how to run 16-bit apps under 64-bit Windows (whatever version), I really want to hear about it. This is an app, like the WINE project, that desperately needs writing.

Thanks, Carwiz. Hope the weekend's nice down there.

 

[McGoon]

Hi,

From experience with my brother in law's scenario. We were able to run DosBox on a Win 7 Pro x64 perfectly.

There was no need whatsoever to run a VM on it. DosBox worked perfectly on the 64 bit OS.

Thanks - my concern isn't for running DOS apps, but for running 16-bit Windows apps on a 64-bit Win OS. I love DOSBox, but it doesn't include Windows drivers.

Do you have any hints on where to go for a 16-bit Windows emulator to run VB6 and other legacy Win apps on 64-bit Win 7?

Thanks...

 

[Cheemag]

Hi,

From experience with my brother in law's scenario. We were able to run DosBox on a Win 7 Pro x64 perfectly.

There was no need whatsoever to run a VM on it. DosBox worked perfectly on the 64 bit OS.

Thanks - my concern isn't for running DOS apps, but for running 16-bit Windows apps on a 64-bit Win OS. I love DOSBox, but it doesn't include Windows drivers.

Do you have any hints on where to go for a 16-bit Windows emulator to run VB6 and other legacy Win apps on 64-bit Win 7?

Thanks...

I had no trouble running it natively in Windows-7 Professional 64-bit, apart from the rather tiny screen. I was able to run Q-Edit and List.com on it (there are no Windows equivalents of these two indispensible tools - if anyone knows better, I'd love to hear from them).

I may have another go at getting a bigger window, but as the app seems to be based on 'games' I don't hold out much hope of finding much information outside the legacy 'games' environment.

 

[McGoon]

I had no trouble running it natively in Windows-7 Professional 64-bit, apart from the rather tiny screen. I was able to run Q-Edit and List.com on it (there are no Windows equivalents of these two indispensible tools - if anyone knows better, I'd love to hear from them).

I may have another go at getting a bigger window, but as the app seems to be based on 'games' I don't hold out much hope of finding much information outside the legacy 'games' environment.

DOSBox will run full-screen - just type Alt-Enter to toggle between the small, windowed version and the full-screen one. I run QEdit and SuperCalc with it daily. You may have to tweak your video settings to run full-screen on a widescreen display without crashing the computer, though. Read the readme.txt file in DOSBox's /documentation directory.

But...DOSBox won't run 16-bit Windows applications - only DOS apps. If anyone has any hints about how to get around 16-bit Windows apps on 64-bit Windows 7, I'm eager to hear about them.

Again, thanks.

 

[oreo27]

DOSBox will run full-screen - just type Alt-Enter to toggle between the small, windowed version and the full-screen one. I run QEdit and SuperCalc with it daily. You may have to tweak your video settings to run full-screen on a widescreen display without crashing the computer, though. Read the readme.txt file in DOSBox's /documentation directory.

But...DOSBox won't run 16-bit Windows applications - only DOS apps. If anyone has any hints about how to get around 16-bit Windows apps on 64-bit Windows 7, I'm eager to hear about them.

Again, thanks.

Hi, according to this thread on Microsoft Answers:

Is Windows 7 able to run 16 bit installers under XP mode? - Microsoft Answers

You can probably try setting compatibility mode to Windows 95. This is a quick tutorial on how to do this. Let us know if it works.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/316-compatibility-mode.html

 

[Cheemag]

DOSBox will run full-screen - just type Alt-Enter to toggle between the small, windowed version and the full-screen one. I run QEdit and SuperCalc with it daily. You may have to tweak your video settings to run full-screen on a widescreen display without crashing the computer, though. Read the readme.txt file in DOSBox's /documentation directory.

I didn't know about the full-screen. At the moment I haven't put it back on Win-7 after a reinstall of the latter. But I'll look into it again.

I've found the ConText editor, which goes some way towards Q-Edit; unfortunately it won't fill a block but it does most other things which Q-Edit does.

Thanks to all who responded.

 

[McGoon]

Hi, according to this thread on Microsoft Answers:

Is Windows 7 able to run 16 bit installers under XP mode? - Microsoft Answers

You can probably try setting compatibility mode to Windows 95. This is a quick tutorial on how to do this. Let us know if it works.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/316-compatibility-mode.html

Hi. Thanks - we'll try setting compatibility mode to Win95 or 8 and see what happens. Unfortunately the note at the top of the tutorial above reads,

"

Note
32 bit Windows has emulation for 16 bit programs built in. 64-bit Windows only has emulation for 32 bit programs."

That's kind of daunting. Let me work on this for a bit and I'll respond when I know more.

Thanks again.

 

[oreo27]

Hi. Thanks - we'll try setting compatibility mode to Win95 or 8 and see what happens. Unfortunately the note at the top of the tutorial above reads,

"

Note
32 bit Windows has emulation for 16 bit programs built in. 64-bit Windows only has emulation for 32 bit programs."

That's kind of daunting. Let me work on this for a bit and I'll respond when I know more.

Thanks again.

If that's the case, there's one thing I can think of. I believe XP Mode is a 32 bit version so your application might work on it. No additional license is required if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/8247-windows-xp-mode-install-setup.html

 

[McGoon]

If that's the case, there's one thing I can think of. I believe XP Mode is a 32 bit version so your application might work on it. No additional license is required if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/8247-windows-xp-mode-install-setup.html

Thanks again. But if I'm not mistaken, XP Mode is all or nothing - either you run 7 as 7 or run it in XP mode, in which case you lose all the memory management advantages of 7.

Compatibility mode was a bust, too, by the way - it only works in the 32-bit install; not in the 64. But I'll keep looking - there has to be some way to run 16-bit Windows apps once 32-bit hardware's no longer available...

Thanks one more time!

 

[oreo27]

Thanks again. But if I'm not mistaken, XP Mode is all or nothing - either you run 7 as 7 or run it in XP mode, in which case you lose all the memory management advantages of 7.

Compatibility mode was a bust, too, by the way - it only works in the 32-bit install; not in the 64. But I'll keep looking - there has to be some way to run 16-bit Windows apps once 32-bit hardware's no longer available...

Thanks one more time!

No worries mate. Well yes, but how intensive can 16 bit apps be?

Darn, too bad mate. Well, if you do find a solution, let us know. Might help other users.

Might be someone else who can shed light onto your predicament

 

[McGoon]

No worries mate. Well yes, but how intensive can 16 bit apps be?

Darn, too bad mate. Well, if you do find a solution, let us know. Might help other users.

Will do. For anyone else trying to preserve 16-bit Windows apps, the WINE project is a shining star. It's fully-functional under Linux, and does a very respectable job of running 16-bit Windows applications. While there's activity in Wine for Windows, however, the good folks on the project stress that it's a long way from fruition. Anyone looking for a programming challenge might want to check it out.

Thanks again.